All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[Tendrin]

Rosa is a member of the 'left not liberal' squad. xD

That said, I don't think 'hey maybe don't agree with transphobes' is setting the bar terribly high and yet Maher /still/ failed that simple, moral test, to say nothing of /all the others/ you have to look past to continue to defend him. Maybe think about why you feel the need to defend him in light of these things that he continues to do, instead of just asking him to do better.

[Theleviathan]

Rosa is a member of the 'left not liberal' squad. xD

That said, I don't think 'hey maybe don't agree with transphobes' is setting the bar terribly high and yet Maher /still/ failed that simple, moral test, to say nothing of /all the others/ you have to look past to continue to defend him. Maybe think about why you feel the need to defend him in light of these things that he continues to do.

Can't I disagree with someone on a few issues and still want to hear their political views? I'm not defending views I disagree with or find offensive. I find them offensive. Some more than others. On some of the criticisms here I don't agree at all. On others I agree with the criticisms completely.

Then again, I also find militant purity arguments and rigidity towards opposing viewpoints as offensive but I still read some of the posts on here. Here's the thing about politics, voting, and opinions: I'm going to vote for someone in 2020 I don't completely agree with. I almost certainly will the rest of my life and so will you. Shunning or canceling people the second we hear something we disagree with is a terrible practice. It's naive, childish, and lacks any value. Hell, it's terribly counter-productive.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

Obama's real problem with cancel culture is that it's temporary. No one stays cancelled for long.



Obama's a fan of cancelling people permanently.

[Tendrin]

Can't I disagree with someone on a few issues and still want to hear their political views? I'm not defending views I disagree with or find offensive. I find them offensive. Some more than others. On some of the criticisms here I don't agree at all. On others I agree with the criticisms completely.

Then again, I also find militant purity arguments and rigidity towards opposing viewpoints as offensive but I still read some of the posts on here. I'm going to vote for someone in 2020 I don't completely agree with. I almost certainly will the rest of my life and so will you. Shunning or canceling people the second we hear something we disagree with is a terrible practice. It's naive, childish, and lacks any value.

A 'few issues' are the human rights and lives of other people. I find no room to budge on trans issues. My housemate is trans. This is an issue that effects me deeply and personally. Some of my best online friends? Muslim. The islamophobia effects me deeply and personally as a result of those relations. This isn't like the difference between 'medicare for all' and 'single payer' and 'universal insurance' or 'mandated health insurance', this is a fundamentally different sort of thing.

I will vote for less harm in 2020, whatever that winds up being, but I will fight like hell on every level to get better than we have now so forgive me if I don't find much to protect in a transphobic, islamaphobic pseudo-liberal on TV. We should demand better than Bill Maher and from Bill Maher, but we won't get it unless we do.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

Shunning or canceling people the second we hear something we disagree with is a terrible practice. It's naive, childish, and lacks any value. Hell, it's terribly counter-productive.

Literally no one does this.

[Theleviathan]

Literally no one does this.

You just blew the internet's irony meter right there.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

You just blew the internet's irony meter right there.

I've been posting stuff from Chomsky, someone whose work I think everyone should be exposed to. One thing I don't agree with him on is his free speech absolutism, but I still post stuff pertaining to him because what he says needs to be heard.

Andrea Dworkin said some really stupid stuff about sex workers, her writing is still a must read for anyone interested in feminism.

I can list name after name of people I listen to, and think other people should listen to, while disagreeing and even disapproving of some of things they've said. I just happen to have standards, so Bill Maher doesn't make the list.

[Theleviathan]

A 'few issues' are the human rights and lives of other people. I find no room to budge on trans issues. My housemate is trans. This is an issue that effects me deeply and personally. Some of my best online friends? Muslim. The islamophobia effects me deeply and personally as a result of those relations. This isn't like the difference between 'medicare for all' and 'single payer' and 'universal insurance' or 'mandated health insurance', this is a fundamentally different sort of thing.

I will vote for less harm in 2020, whatever that winds up being, but I will fight like hell on every level to get better than we have now so forgive me if I don't find much to protect in a transphobic, islamaphobic pseudo-liberal on TV. We should demand better than Bill Maher and from Bill Maher, but we won't get it unless we do.

Demanding better is fine, but I don't think that's the tone of the responses to what Malvio said earlier. I think viewing the layered issues that exist with transgender rights and with the practice of Islam around the world with such a narrow view of right/wrong is problematic. These issues are simple in some ways but complex in many others.

I guess I'm just less quick to cry "Islamaphobe!" or some such thing when the issues are this complex. Many Republicans make racist remarks for sure. Ilhan Omar is constantly subjected to them. But there are many on the left that I do believe could learn something about soft bigotry and do some introspection. Maher could probably present that argument with a less inflammatory tact....but sometimes I wonder if it really matters. The cancel culture folks don't seem like the reasonable types.

I do think he got off too easy for his "n word" debacle though.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

If we're talking about this forum, I haven't "cancelled" Tendrin because I think Warren sucks.

I'll bet anything that all of us here that have been calling out Maher, disagree on a lot of issues.

[InformationGeek]

I'm not sure how far you are into Trump's profile now, but here's something for next year to note with his administration.

EXCLUSIVE: The White House had a Halloween party for kids at the EEOB, with paper planes in Pence's office, a candy store, and games.

Oh, and a "Build the Wall" display where kids were told to write their name on paper bricks.

@janawinter got pics.

https://t.co/lpNFGH0UAd

[Theleviathan]

I'm not sure how far you are into Trump's profile now, but here's something for next year to note with his administration.

What a fucking douche. Jesus.

[numberthirty]

Demanding better is fine, but I don't think that's the tone of the responses to what Malvio said earlier. I think viewing the layered issues that exist with transgender rights and with the practice of Islam around the world with such a narrow view of right/wrong is problematic. These issues are simple in some ways but complex in many others.

I guess I'm just less quick to cry "Islamaphobe!" or some such thing when the issues are this complex. Many Republicans make racist remarks for sure. Ilhan Omar is constantly subjected to them. But there are many on the left that I do believe could learn something about soft bigotry and do some introspection. Maher could probably present that argument with a less inflammatory tact....but sometimes I wonder if it really matters. The cancel culture folks don't seem like the reasonable types.

I do think he got off too easy for his "n word" debacle though.

Just to point this out...

If you have folks deciding what they will not discuss something based on "Facts...", that's "Cancel".

It's not like anyone talking about Maher is not talking about things this guy has actually done.

[Tendrin]

Demanding better is fine, but I don't think that's the tone of the responses to what Malvio said earlier. I think viewing the layered issues that exist with transgender rights and with the practice of Islam around the world with such a narrow view of right/wrong is problematic. These issues are simple in some ways but complex in many others.

I guess I'm just less quick to cry "Islamaphobe!" or some such thing when the issues are this complex. Many Republicans make racist remarks for sure. Ilhan Omar is constantly subjected to them. But there are many on the left that I do believe could learn something about soft bigotry and do some introspection. Maher could probably present that argument with a less inflammatory tact....but sometimes I wonder if it really matters. The cancel culture folks don't seem like the reasonable types.

I do think he got off too easy for his "n word" debacle though.

I think you're buying way way way too much into the myth of 'cancel culture' at this point to be able to argue with you on it. I think you need to do some serious rethinking.

[Theleviathan]

I think you're buying way way way too much into the myth of 'cancel culture' at this point to be able to argue with you on it. I think you need to do some serious rethinking.

And I think you may have ideological reasons to downplay it and would encourage the same.

[Tendrin]

And I think you may have ideological reasons to downplay it and would encourage the same.

Meanwhile, Bill Maher still has a TV show despite the so-called 'cancel culture', along with a whole lot of other people who would be 'cancelled' if it actually existed. Individuals making a decision not to engage with transphobes and bigots is a stance I'm okay with, though, and pointing out that he's trash is perfectly fine by me.

Because he is. You may want to consider why you're more worried about 'cancel culture' than you are with a guy with a national show implying that he agrees transwomen are sexual predators. There's nowhere near the kind of nuance in his bigotry that you're trying to find and I doubt you'd make this excuse for other forms of it.