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  1. #9961
    Invincible Member Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    That only holds true when one part of the population doesn't have another part to inflict those evils on. Humans are very good at finding and maintaining populations to look down on. In fact so good it's been done by basically every large scale nation that I can think of throughout history.
    Tribalism, conflict, and territorism are also inherent in human nature. There are always fights for the best land, the best resources. Both this and morality are survival mechanisms. The only way morality can win over tribalism is if humans expand their/our definition of who we are.

    That is going to be a hard sell as long as environmental stressors threaten survival of a 'tribe', as long as resources not evenly accessible, as long as a 'tribe' feels threatened.

    Morality works best within the confines of a 'tribe', but until this 'tribe' encompasses all humans on the planet, it will be hard to offset the chaotic effects of tribalism.
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  2. #9962
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    The issue with Russian interference is that its so blatant, not that its happening. The great game has been happening since the 19th Century but there often tended to be some subtlety, now either Putin's a hideous bungler (Novochok, 2016, now) or he's trying to square up.

    As for America, its a complex issue. Yeah you guys did some awful shit and still are, but its all at the behest of the corporate class who refuse to pay their way or allow any necessary restraints on theur money hoarding ways.
    The thing is that the Russians aren't using any particularly clever or devious tactics, they are basically just exploiting the racism and xenophobia that's already present among large segments of American society and speaking to that in the most crude but effective way possible. If we were any kind of decent people we wouldn't be susceptible to these sorts of lowly tricks at all, but alas here we are.

  3. #9963
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Pretty sure needless murder has always been inherently wrong. Like I cant think of an era where just stabbing someone for the fun of it was seen as ok
    Human sacrifice is really not all that uncommon in many ancient cultures and could be considered needless murder. And needless murderer is found in nature, there was a pod of orca that purposely drown a blue wale calf for what seemed just for the fun of it. There had to be a time in human history before being "civilized" with killing for the reason of killing, without consequence or remorse. The traditional view of social scientists has been that morality is a construct, and is thus culturally relative. Like all sciences there are some that disagree with it, that it is programing that we are born with it a moral naturalism. Sea turtles know to run to the sea when they are born, man knows killing is "bad".

    My opinion is that morality is a natural phenomenon and a cultural phenomenon. Man went form killing people from my "tribe" is bad but it's ok to kill people from that other tribe even if it is for fun. To killing anyone is bad. The Aztec had no qualms about going out and raiding villages for sacrifice victims hundreds of years ago, the modern descendants (largest aboriginal group in Mexico) if asked would strongly disagree with that practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    Tribalism, conflict, and territorism are also inherent in human nature. There are always fights for the best land, the best resources. Both this and morality are survival mechanisms. The only way morality can win over tribalism is if humans expand their/our definition of who we are.

    That is going to be a hard sell as long as environmental stressors threaten survival of a 'tribe', as long as resources not evenly accessible, as long as a 'tribe' feels threatened.

    Morality works best within the confines of a 'tribe', but until this 'tribe' encompasses all humans on the planet, it will be hard to offset the chaotic effects of tribalism.
    Tribalism, and packism is a very inherent trait in humans, go to any college campus or high school, people group up with those that are like themselves.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 02-26-2020 at 03:59 PM.
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  4. #9964

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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    The thing is that the Russians aren't using any particularly clever or devious tactics, they are basically just exploiting the racism and xenophobia that's already present among large segments of American society and speaking to that in the most crude but effective way possible. If we were any kind of decent people we wouldn't be susceptible to these sorts of lowly tricks at all, but alas here we are.
    How fundamentally different do you think the outcome would have been if the Russians had done absolutely nothing (beyond the time and money spent discussing what the Russians have done)?

  5. #9965
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    How fundamentally different do you think the outcome would have been if the Russians had done absolutely nothing (beyond the time and money spent discussing what the Russians have done)?
    If it affected about 6 thousand in Michigan and 12 thousand or or so in WI, It turned the election. That's out of 7 million votes. About 0.3% of the voters.

    The Mueller Report said it did.
    https://www.wired.com/story/did-russ...ow-undeniable/

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...tion-for-trump

    I know you want to refuse to admit that the 2016 election was at the least questionable, and probably stolen.
    Last edited by Kirby101; 02-26-2020 at 04:30 PM.
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  6. #9966
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Falcon View Post
    I would argue that the concept of natural rights, which replaced rule by divine rights, is more dangerous because who on Earth gets to decide what is natural? We've already seen how the notion of what's natural and what's not has been used as justification to keep in place policies that were racist, sexist and anti-LGBT.

    The idea that rights are man made and need to be fought for, maintained and at times expanded will keep people far safer than a fairytale we tell ourselves of their unchanging nature.....
    I think you don't understand what I mean by Natural Law. I'm not talking about customs or "norms". What I am talking about is the concept that people have universal human rights whether certain societies recognize so or not is irrelevant. A society can't give or take away your human rights said rights are always yours by virtue of being human. An example of Natural Law are concepts such as equality before the law and murder or unlawful killing and (yes) same sex marriage. Sure, a society can pass a law to curtail a human right but that law only has power where it is enforced by said state, take slavery for example. The Northern States realized they were under no obligation to return a person to a Southern State because being enslaved was considered an unnatural state for humans because we are born free, it is our natural right or state of being.

    You should read Scorpion's Sting: Antislavery and the Coming of the Civil War -

    https://www.amazon.com/Scorpions-Sti.../dp/0393351211
    Last edited by Celgress; 02-26-2020 at 04:54 PM.
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  7. #9967
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Falcon View Post
    They're not okay. They're not okay because we have made them not okay. And I'm happy we did for reasons that should be obvious to all. There's just nothing inherent about it.

    Rights exist because we create and enforce them. They don't exist as magical words in the sky that have been there since time immemorial.
    This and your other posts today are excellent statements of modern Epicurean social-contract theory. Keep it up, I'm with you!

    For those who want to explore this further, I recommend this book: How To Be An Epicurean
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  8. #9968
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    If it affected about 6 thousand in Michigan and 12 thousand or or so in WI, It turned the election. That's out of 7 million votes. About 0.3% of the voters.

    The Mueller Report said it did.
    https://www.wired.com/story/did-russ...ow-undeniable/

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...tion-for-trump

    I know you want to refuse to admit that the 2016 election was at the least questionable, and probably stolen.
    I'm seriously doubting the chain of direct (or even indirect) causality here, but hey never know it could be true.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  9. #9969
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Allen View Post
    This and your other posts today are excellent statements of modern Epicurean social-contract theory. Keep it up, I'm with you!

    For those who want to explore this further, I recommend this book: How To Be An Epicurean
    An excellent and informative link (helping others learn is always of value), thanks for sharing.
    Last edited by Celgress; 02-26-2020 at 04:56 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  10. #9970

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    If it affected about 6 thousand in Michigan and 12 thousand or or so in WI, It turned the election. That's out of 7 million votes. About 0.3% of the voters.

    The Mueller Report said it did.
    https://www.wired.com/story/did-russ...ow-undeniable/

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...tion-for-trump

    I know you want to refuse to admit that the 2016 election was at the least questionable, and probably stolen.
    https://www.usnews.com/news/the-run-...-2016-election

    Trump won Michigan by 13,080 votes, and Wisconsin by 27,257 votes. But without those states, he still has 280 electoral votes, so he needs either Pennsylvania which he won by 68,236 votes, or Florida which he won by 114,455 votes.

    For the propaganda to have an effect with the numbers you describe (half rounded down) this would have had to be the tipping point to sway 6,541 Michiganders, 13,629 Wisconsinites, plus 34,119 Pennsylvanians who would otherwise have voted for Hillary Clinton to back Donald Trump instead.

    It could have an effect on turnout, convincing people who would otherwise support Clinton to stay home (or back Stein) or encouraging skeptical Republicans to go to the polls, but each of those people is worth half of a Clinton voter who switches to Trump.

    This is all in the context of an election in which Democrats and affiliated SuperPACs spent and raised $1.19 billion dollars, and Republicans and affiliated SuperPACs spent $646.8 million dollars, so it seems strange for foreigners to have a much higher return on investment.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/g...n-fundraising/

    I'd say the election was questionable, although that is true of any close election. It was probably not stolen.

  11. #9971

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazirai View Post
    Success... bahahahahaha, Carville still thinks we should run like we did in the era of Tip Oneal, who like two people remember.

    This raises an interesting question. If Carville is unfit to be a political commentator, who has a better track record, and how do you measure that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Falcon View Post
    I would argue that the concept of natural rights, which replaced rule by divine rights, is more dangerous because who on Earth gets to decide what is natural? We've already seen how the notion of what's natural and what's not has been used as justification to keep in place policies that were racist, sexist and anti-LGBT.

    The idea that rights are man made and need to be fought for, maintained and at times expanded will keep people far safer than a fairytale we tell ourselves of their unchanging nature.



    The rise of right wing groups pushing notions of nativism, racism and the dehumanization of people who aren't like them shows just how important fighting for a better world is, and how it can slip away if we're not careful. If they win, two hundred years from now society might look back at us and think how naive and backwards we were for thinking ethnicities and races were equal and should be allowed to mix.

    All rights can change. To me, this perception of rights a source of great danger, and of great hope. Because civilization can also become better in the notions it holds of basic human rights than it does now.
    I would worry that the idea that rights are manmade diminishes the moral argument for whatever cause you're fighting for, because of the implication that we could decide as a society tomorrow that it's wrong.

    Natural rights suggests that there is some higher moral standard, regardless of the societal standards of a particular time. The argument is that we don't really know perfectly what those rights are. There are some nuances (what is acceptable in a time of mass starvation is not acceptable in a time of plenty; legal standards may differ in a warzone environment) but these should be definable. If someone believes in natural rights and thinks this means that a very specific and brief status quo is obviously the ideal, they have a very limited understanding of history.

  12. #9972
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    Trump campaign’s plan to woo black voters: Retail stores

    The centers will distribute pamphlets and sell merchandise, including hats and sweatshirts embroidered with the word “woke.”
    "Text "woke to 8802"

    I cannot even....

  13. #9973
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidfresh512 View Post
    Trump campaign’s plan to woo black voters: Retail stores



    "Text "woke to 8802"

    I cannot even....
    Trump the Ultimate Troll. It is obvious why he is using the word "woke". If nothing else the guy has a talent for twisted biting humor.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  14. #9974

  15. #9975
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    I don't think he is lying, rather I think he is going senile and has been for at least a year.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

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