All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[The Overlord]

You mean the reality you don't live in where he signed the crime bill just like everyone else being criticized by Sanders supporters?

"What I did was wrong but it's okay because I feel bad about it."

Anyway, enough surreality -- I'm going to do some drawing.

So others bringing up Biden and the crime bill is ''what aboustim'', but you mentioning that Bernie signed is not? Tell me when does ''what aboutism'' get invoked, when you want it to be?

[numberthirty]

That's a quote from 1994.

A quote from 1994 where Sanders was one of the only people pointing out the obvious issues with what they were about to do. If any real number of "Business As Usual..." Democrats had put any thought into what they were doing and got on page Sanders was on just enough make any sort of a realistic attempt to actually build serious attempts at prevention as opposed to punishment?

You probably wind up with a completely different picture now.

Folks could have actually thought to listen to one of the only reasonable voices at the time, but apparently there were bigger fish to fry.

[Steel Inquisitor]

A quote from 1994 where Sanders was one of the only people pointing out the obvious issues with what they were about to do. If any real number of "Business As Usual..." Democrats had put any thought into what they were doing and got on page Sanders was on just enough make any sort of a realistic attempt to actually build serious attempts at prevention as opposed to punishment?

You probably wind up with a completely different picture now.

Folks could have actually thought to listen to one of the only reasonable voices at the time, but apparently there were bigger fish to fry.

Why wasn't this a centre piece through his career rather than a one off? The man marched with Martin Luther King you'd think he'd put in more effort to talk about it. It didn't stop in '94.

[aja_christopher]

So others bringing up Biden and the crime bill is ''what aboustim'', but you mentioning that Bernie signed is not? Tell me when does ''what aboutism'' get invoked, when you want it to be?

Not sure -- more of a Rogue than an Invoker, but I'm open to multi-classing.

https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Invoker

[numberthirty]

So others bringing up Biden and the crime bill is ''what aboustim'', but you mentioning that Bernie signed is not? Tell me when does ''what aboutism'' get invoked, when you want it to be?

Dude, there's not much of a point there.

If you aren't going to be serious about that Sanders was making an attempt to stop who know how many people from winding up in prison because it's "Fun" to you to do whatever is being done there, there's not much of a point in engaging past there.

[numberthirty]

Why wasn't this a centre piece through his career rather than a one off? The man marched with Martin Luther King you'd think he'd put in more effort to talk about it. It didn't stop in '94.

Lemme see if I have this one straight...

That no one else was talking about how that could potentially go wrong and create the problem?

Not worth going into.

That Sanders didn't put on a cape, and save all of the multiverse from the "Business As Usual..." Democrats who apparently couldn't be bothered with even thinking about the potential consequences of their actions?

Completely reasonable standard to hold him to.

[TheDarman]

So others bringing up Biden and the crime bill is ''what aboustim'', but you mentioning that Bernie signed is not? Tell me when does ''what aboutism'' get invoked, when you want it to be?

I think it is more “how come Sanders can use it as a cudgel to beat candidates with when not only he voted for it himself, but virtually everyone, including African Americans, also voted for it”. That’s my read on it.

And, as I already said about the link you brought into the forum, those actions aren’t even a mile wide, but still only an inch deep. They are what you would basically get recommended if you took a “How to Build a Coalition with Black Voters 101” from an out-of-touch rich white guy. The reality is a lot more complicated and multi-faceted. It includes generations of exclusion and lack of repatriation for lost wages, salaries, education, and economic opportunity that resulted from all of those factors. So, Bernie addressing voting rights issues is good, but black voters aren’t the only ones who suffer from the destruction of the Voting Rights Act. We all suffer when democracy isn’t working and votes are being suppressed. Bernie addressing environmental problems is good, but hardly a policy directed at addressing issues within the black community and experience in America. Bernie addressing wage inequality is good, but it doesn’t change the fact that minority women still make $0.50 on the dollar that white men make. We can lift everyone up equally economically, but how do you address that wage discrepancy? Because if you aren’t looking at that problem, you are only perpetuating the same rate discrepancy while increasing the real amount difference that makes. Sure, everyone is happier to have more, but does it mean that it is any more fair that now an average white working class family makes $100,000 while a similarly situated black family makes $65,000? Bernie addressing problems of the working class is good (even if I think the attacks on trade are misplaced and misrepresenting what trade does—we should be trying to ensure that people are seeing the gains from trade, even if it is from redistribution, rather than trying to restrict it and restrain us from specialization which makes us all collectively richer), but that has always been his project, and that project has typically been carried out by white liberals like FDR or LBJ who couldn’t care less if black people shared in that prosperity. That’s my problem with the section.

[The Overlord]

Dude, there's not much of a point there.

If you aren't going to be serious about that Sanders was making an attempt to stop who know how many people from winding up in prison because it's "Fun" to you to do whatever is being done there, there's not much of a point in engaging past there.

Fair enough, I just wanted to call out bad-faith arguments and misuse of ''what aboutism'' on this thread, especially since someone here wants to troll rather than discuss.

My point was some people here seem to think Bernie is somehow stunning ignorant on this issue and Biden is some super justice warrior on this issue when that is clearly not the case. Bernie's record constantly under a microscope while Biden constantly gets a pass shows some people on this thread are using an important issue to score cheap political points and that is just cynical, IMO.

I think it is more “how come Sanders can use it as a cudgel to beat candidates with when not only he voted for it himself, but virtually everyone, including African Americans, also voted for it”. That’s my read on it.

And, as I already said about the link you brought into the forum, those actions aren’t even a mile wide, but still only an inch deep. They are what you would basically get recommended if you took a “How to Build a Coalition with Black Voters 101” from an out-of-touch rich white guy. The reality is a lot more complicated and multi-faceted. It includes generations of exclusion and lack of repatriation for lost wages, salaries, education, and economic opportunity that resulted from all of those factors. So, Bernie addressing voting rights issues is good, but black voters aren’t the only ones who suffer from the destruction of the Voting Rights Act. We all suffer when democracy isn’t working and votes are being suppressed. Bernie addressing environmental problems is good, but hardly a policy directed at addressing issues within the black community and experience in America. Bernie addressing wage inequality is good, but it doesn’t change the fact that minority women still make $0.50 on the dollar that white men make. We can lift everyone up equally economically, but how do you address that wage discrepancy? Because if you aren’t looking at that problem, you are only perpetuating the same rate discrepancy while increasing the real amount difference that makes. Sure, everyone is happier to have more, but does it mean that it is any more fair that now an average white working class family makes $100,000 while a similarly situated black family makes $65,000? Bernie addressing problems of the working class is good (even if I think the attacks on trade are misplaced and misrepresenting what trade does—we should be trying to ensure that people are seeing the gains from trade, even if it is from redistribution, rather than trying to restrict it and restrain us from specialization which makes us all collectively richer), but that has always been his project, and that project has typically been carried out by white liberals like FDR or LBJ who couldn’t care less if black people shared in that prosperity. That’s my problem with the section.

Except others brought up this issue, I was responding to them

I am saying people on this thread are making bad-faith arguments, they want to present Bernie's as some brutish neanderthal on this issue, while Biden is presented as some sort of super justice warrior on this issue and any talk of his record just gets a shrug.

I would consider this a good-faith argument, if everyone's record was looked equally, rather one person getting a pass.

[Theleviathan]

If he wins, he wins, if he loses, I am not going to take anyone seriously who blames his loose on Bernie Bros.

I might blame Bernie and his coalition if their behavior becomes untoward. Just a week ago, when he thought he'd have the plurality and the popular vote, he made a claim of how things should happen.

Let's see if he has the integrity to stick with that when he doesn't win the plurality or the popular vote.

[aja_christopher]

Dude, there's not much of a point there.

If you aren't going to be serious about that Sanders was making an attempt to stop who know how many people from winding up in prison because it's "Fun" to you to do whatever is being done there, there's not much of a point in engaging past there.

Says the person who didn't vote against Trump.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Lemme see if I have this one straight...

That no one else was talking about how that could potentially go wrong and create the problem?

Not worth going into.

That Sanders didn't put on a cape, and save all of the multiverse from the "Business As Usual..." Democrats who apparently couldn't be bothered with even thinking about the potential consequences of their actions?

Completely reasonable standard to hold him to.

This makes no sense.

Nobody is expecting him to solve it by itself, but the least he could do was make it a bigger issue to campaign on and fight for publicly. He's supposed to be a fighter, so why wasn't he fighting? Going on tv shows, speeches in congress, you name it. This was in his state, so it should be more of a high priority.

Instead you'd rather we ignore it because it makes Sanders look bad. His reputation would crumble further in the primaries had other candidates and PAC's weaponised it against him.

[Theleviathan]

Regarding Theleviathan's point above. One of the reasons why Younger voters don't come out is because they already have a lot to think about right now. Not just "Fun" things, they also have to consider their jobs, college or not, family, and so much more in the world globally that older voters didn't have to think about. Then there's the "Well I can sit out this and wait four years."

If politicans really wanted to court the younger crowd, instagram, youtube and snap chatting. Using social media platforms and making themselves out to be the SM politician that understands how younger people communicate. Become, as weird as this sounds, a SM influencer that talks about things. Such as, I don't know, putting on make up and using it to explain Health plan policies. Having a ASMR video about dealing with climate change. Vlog a campaign trip using public transportation and talk to people on the road and sit and chat with them. Do a, whatever healthy (not cinnimon or tide pods) challenge with the crew to set up for a ralley and talk about your experinces. Fashion haul discussing unionization and issues with lobbiest. ETC. As weird as those sound, it can work because it puts it in a more personal scope for younger viewers who may be watching those things.

I strongly disagree. I can remember voting as a college kid and now as an adult. I have to juggle WAY more shit to vote now than I did in my 20s. Now, folks who are retired? Sure, probably easiest of all. But this entire post is far too excuse heavy for my liking.

Candidates do employ social media and Bernie has done a host of things on this front. And, online at least, it seems to be working with the number of, um, passionate folks he has. But on ballot day they don't show. They had 4 years to register, know the voting day, and translate that enthusiasm to meaningful action.

They failed miserably.

[TheDarman]

Lemme see if I have this one straight...

That no one else was talking about how that could potentially go wrong and create the problem?

Not worth going into.

That Sanders didn't put on a cape, and save all of the multiverse from the "Business As Usual..." Democrats who apparently couldn't be bothered with even thinking about the potential consequences of their actions?

Completely reasonable standard to hold him to.

The quote cited was about “preventive justice”, not racial justice. And Sanders’ quote wasn’t used widely because the prevailing idea for what we wanted was “retributive justice”. I can agree that I prefer “preventive justice” as a cause, but it wasn’t because Sanders was more enlightened about what effect it would have on the black community. No one, not even black politicians, fully understood what they were about to do. Sanders has always been committed to “preventive justice”—that’s what his entire campaign is about, right?—but it wasn’t particularly focused on the impact it would have on these communities, because it was assumed it would be comprehensive and work the same way for all communities. And Sanders was just as concerned about white working class folk screwed by the man who got involved in criminal activity because they were down on their luck as he was the black family. Any other reading of it is giving the man way more credit than he has earned given how surface level his commentary on racial injustice has been.

[Theleviathan]

The race is not over yet, but at this point, I think Biden will the nomination.

But here's the thing, you say Bernie is not a viable candidate, then fine that is your opinion.

But if Biden's case is that he is the most electable, then it's his responsibility to win, his success or failure should be his own doing and if he fails, he should take responsibility for it.

No one has a moral obligation to vote for Biden, its Biden's job to convince people to vote for him, it's not the job of anyone to vote for him. He has to close the deal with the public, he has to make the case why he should be President and I am hoping he is run on something stronger than ''I'm not Trump''. He better brings his A-game and stops being offended when someone asks him a tough question.

I hope Biden wins if he is the nominee, but if his case is he is the most electable, he should be held responsibility for his successes or failures.

I wonder....do you hold Bernie to the same standard given his failures as a candidate? The truth is, Bernie told us how he'd have to win: turnout. There was turnout in huge numbers yesterday. But for Biden. (You could've given me some sweet odds on that and I wouldn't have taken it. but it's so telling) It's not really an opinion any more, the argument that non-participating progressives will flood elections once given an option they love has failed twice now. And never succeeded.

Biden does need to bring the win home. But Progressives need to shut the #%* up until they bother to show up at ballot boxes.

[The Overlord]

I might blame Bernie and his coalition if their behavior becomes untoward. Just a week ago, when he thought he'd have the plurality and the popular vote, he made a claim of how things should happen.

Let's see if he has the integrity to stick with that when he doesn't win the plurality or the popular vote.

Does Biden get absolved from personal responsibility then?

Biden's case is electability, it's his job to convince people to vote for him, no one is duty-bound to vote for him. If Biden is allowed to enjoy the spoils victory, then he must bear the weight of defeat, his electablity case means nothing he cannot held responbile for his victories and defeats.

I wonder....do you hold Bernie to the same standard given his failures as a candidate? The truth is, Bernie told us how he'd have to win: turnout. There was turnout in huge numbers yesterday. But for Biden. (You could've given me some sweet odds on that and I wouldn't have taken it. but it's so telling) It's not really an opinion any more, the argument that non-participating progressives will flood elections once given an option they love has failed twice now. And never succeeded.

Biden does need to bring the win home. But Progressives need to shut the #%* up until they bother to show up at ballot boxes.

If Biden wins the nomination, he wins the nomination and Bernie will no longer be a factor. If that's the way it is, that's the way it is. Not my ideal outcome, but hey, what are you gonna do?

But then Biden has delivered on his promise on electability and actually win and I will not take anyone seriously if they make excuses for him if he loses, if he loses, his loss should be his. Making excuses for him makes that whole electability argument seem like a big sham if he loses.