All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[numberthirty]

I see absolutely nothing in that post that explains why Sanders will win when progressives rarely if ever win election and re-election in the modern era.

Anyone could have said the exact same thing about Donald Trump in the lead up to the last Presidential election.

Edit:

In addition, that folks can't even start to talk about how Biden has done in previous runs for the nomination sticks out like a sore thumb.

- How has he done when he hit any adversity during those runs?
- Has he ever recovered from stumbles during those runs?

That folks aren't even asking themselves these questions is rather odd.

[Farealmer]

It's gonna be real nasty for at least the next 5 years.

I am still deluding myself it's going to be the good kind of nasty of a biden or sanders presidency rather than another Donny one.

[zinderel]

No one is arguing that moderate Democrats (and Republicans) don't occasionally lose elections: what is being asked is how many progressives win in comparison.

The fact that you -- and many others -- won't even answer that proves that you know better than to even try to do so.

If you could be honest and just admit that moderate Democrats statistically do far better in elections than progressives and then go on to point out -- based on factual data -- why Sanders is different and has a better chance than those who came before him, then we could have an honest conversation about why it would make more sense to support Sanders than Biden going into the general election.

Instead we continually get diversions, distractions, slander, and outright lies regarding past elections, to the point where you'll even ignore the fact that it was moderate Democrats who won most of the elections in 2018, all so that you can promote a candidate who got beat by millions of votes in the primaries and couldn't even make it to the general election in the same year that you keep bringing up as being the end-all be-all of political contests.

If anything, the evidence shows that "moderate" Democrats -- like Hillary -- who try to appeal to a "progressive" base tend to lose general elections, and that Biden is smart to let Sanders do his thing, while Biden goes with what led to landslide victories for Obama during both 2008 and 2012, as well as what worked for moderates in the landslide Democratic midterm victories of 2018.

Don't try to argue why Biden will lose when moderates have a solid record to stand on -- explain why Sanders will win when progressives don't.

To be fair, there is no question that the system is deeply rigged against anyone wanting to change the status quo actually being able to. That we even got the ACA at all was a miracle.

That said, as nice as it would be to see a sweeping tide of progressive change THIS YEAR, where we get everything we want and keep it for several elections, allowing us to reshape America closer to the progressive ideal than the regressive nightmare of the last several years, the fact that we haven’t really had the kind of ‘sweeping change’ to policy that progressives want more than two or three times since all of American history? Says we should focus on the wins we CAN get, and make sure those wins stick by not throwing our votes at protest candidates or refusal to participate at all because our perfect candidate didn’t get the nomination, and we need to stop trying to force the kind of all-at-once change that benefits the people most in need, but scares the easily befuddled into voting for the enemy...though, that being said, if you are the sort who refuses to vote in support of the marginalized and underrepresented because some aggressive progressive scared your feelings, like Joe Rogan’s core audience of neck beards and incels? Screw you.

[aja_christopher]

Anyone could have said the exact same thing about Donald Trump in the lead up to the last Presidential election.

Edit:

In addition, that folks can't even start to talk about how Biden has done in previous runs for the nomination sticks out like a sore thumb.

- How has he done when he hit any adversity during those runs?
- Has he ever recovered from stumbles during those runs?

That folks aren't even asking themselves these questions is rather odd.

Again -- all you are doing is trying to attack Biden, just as you did Hillary who beat Sanders by millions of votes.

You still have yet to show how a progressive candidate like Sanders can win a general election and re-election, like Obama and Clinton before them.

Attacking Biden -- and other moderate Democrats who have both won and lost national elections -- is not the answer.

To be fair, there is no question that the system is deeply rigged against anyone wanting to change the status quo actually being able to. That we even got the ACA at all was a miracle.

That said, as nice as it would be to see sweeping change THIS YEAR, the fact that we haven’t really had the kind of ‘sweeping change’ to policy that progressives want more than two or three times since all of American history? Says we should focus on the wins we CAN get, and stop trying to force the kind of change that scares the easily befuddled into voting for the enemy...

All kinds of "progressive" change happened under Obama and Biden -- if it hadn't, Trump wouldn't be so busy trying to undo it.

Some people just refuse to give credit where it's due because they want to support a candidate who talks a good game but has yet to deliver.

[numberthirty]

No one is arguing that moderate Democrats (and Republicans) don't occasionally lose elections: what is being asked is how many progressives win in comparison.

The fact that you -- and many others -- won't even answer that proves that you know better than to even try to do so.

If you could be honest and just admit that moderate Democrats statistically do far better in elections than progressives and then go on to point out -- based on factual data -- why Sanders is different and has a better chance than those who came before him, then we could have an honest conversation about why it would make more sense to support Sanders than Biden going into the general election.

Instead we continually get diversions, distractions, slander, and outright lies regarding past elections, to the point where you'll even ignore the fact that it was moderate Democrats who won most of the elections in 2018, all so that you can promote a candidate who got beat by millions of votes in the primaries and couldn't even make it to the general election in the same year that you keep bringing up as being the end-all be-all of political contests.

If anything, the evidence shows that "moderate" Democrats -- like Hillary -- who try to appeal to a "progressive" base tend to lose general elections, and that Biden is smart to let Sanders do his thing, while Biden goes with what led to landslide victories for Obama during both 2008 and 2012, as well as what worked for moderates in the landslide Democratic midterm victories of 2018.

Don't try to argue why Biden will lose when moderates have a solid record to stand on -- explain why Sanders will win when progressives don't.

Again, to put this simply...

If a "Moderate" Democrat has a solid record to stand on is an actual "Truth...", explain the support that Warren/Sanders have.

Why isn't Biden up by more than he is if his take has this "Solid Record To Stand On..."?

[Billy Batson]

A man in Iowa asks Joe Biden to stop supporting the building of new pipelines. Joe Biden tells him to go vote for someone else and then starts accusing him of voting for Bernie Sanders. Actually, the man says, he's voting for Tom Steyer. Very awkward.
https://twitter.com/ZaidJilani/statu...58335342366721[video]

[numberthirty]

Again -- all you are doing is trying to attack Biden, just as you did Hillary who beat Sanders by millions of votes.

You still have yet to show how a progressive candidate like Sanders can win a general election and re-election, like Obama and Clinton before them.

Attacking Biden -- and other moderate Democrats who have both won and lost national elections -- is not the answer.

But, ignoring the possible weak spots that could cost him an election is?

[aja_christopher]

Again, to put this simply...

If a "Moderate" Democrat has a solid record to stand on is an actual "Truth...", explain the support that Warren/Sanders have.

Why isn't Biden up by more than he is if his take has this "Solid Record To Stand On..."?

That's not an answer to the question regarding progressive candidates and their lack of success on the national stage.

Let's just be honest here -- you don't have one, which is why all you can do is attack "moderate" candidates who have been far more successful.

The reality is that trying to drag other candidates down doesn't make yours any more electable -- in fact, it just makes people not want to support him.

[numberthirty]

A man in Iowa asks Joe Biden to stop supporting the building of new pipelines. Joe Biden tells him to go vote for someone else and then starts accusing him of voting for Bernie Sanders. Actually, the man says, he's voting for Tom Steyer. Very awkward.
https://twitter.com/ZaidJilani/statu...58335342366721

Man...

Assuming that is anywhere near what happened, that is everything I have been talking about.

That doesn't worry folks at all?

[Billy Batson]

Man...

Assuming that is anywhere near what happened, that is everything I have been talking about.

That doesn't worry folks at all?

There's a video in the link.

Four different examples from the past six months
Biden 2020: Vote For Someone Else
https://twitter.com/behindyourback/s...86518426984450

[aja_christopher]

I am still deluding myself it's going to be the good kind of nasty of a biden or sanders presidency rather than another Donny one.

Eh, we had Bush Sr (Gulf war and recession) then Clinton (recession to solid economy and budget surplus) then we had Bush (Iraq war and record recession) then we had Obama (ACA, gay marriage, marijuana legalization, recession to solid economy) and now we have Trump.

That's just how it is in the modern era -- bad Republican leadership followed by good Democratic leadership.

At this rate, Jesus will come back and be our next president if we get saddled with Trump for another four years, assuming we survive the experience.

[zinderel]

This entire Bernie vs everyone rehash of 2016:

*Non-Bernie candidate says or does something dumb, but not flat out evil, or said something deeply problematic 30 years ago*
‘Moderates’: Well. Looks like a politician said something dumb. I disagree with him/I hope he’s grown as a person since then. What’s for dinner?
‘Leftists’: CANNIBALIZE HIS REMAINS AND FEED IT TO THE YOUNG!!! BERNIE IS THE ONE TRUE LORD OF THIS WORLD WHO WILL SAVE US ALL!!!

*Bernie says or does something dumb and neither Biden or Hillary are involved at all*
‘Moderates’: Well. Bernie said something dumb, and his followers refuse to acknowledge it. Man, if they weren’t so fanatical, maybe I could stomach voting for him, despite it...
‘Leftists’: BERNIE IS NEVER WRONG!! EVEN WHEN HE IS CLEARLY WRONG, ITS ALL BIDEN’S FAULT FOR BEING OLD AND CREEPY!!!! CURSE YOU HILLLLLLLAAAAAARRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYY!!!!

And they wonder why we call them culty...

[Gray Lensman]

Eh, we had Bush Sr (Gulf war and recession) then Clinton (recession to solid economy and budget surplus) then we had Bush (Iraq war and record recession) then we had Obama (ACA, gay marriage, marijuana legalization, recession to solid economy) and now we have Trump.

That's just how it is in the modern era -- bad Republican leadership followed by good Democratic leadership.

At this rate, Jesus will come back and be our next president if we get saddled with Trump for another four years, assuming we survive the experience.

I think you are wrong on Bush Sr. IIRC, he inherited his recession from Reagan and manages to turn it around in the latter part of his presidency, except that the recovery was in slow motion. The public didn't start to feel the effects until after he was gone.

[numberthirty]

I think you are wrong on Bush Sr. IIRC, he inherited his recession from Reagan and manages to turn it around in the latter part of his presidency, except that the recovery was in slow motion. The public didn't start to feel the effects until after he was gone.

If we're being honest, he was also smart enough not to turn that war into a complete disaster.

[Gray Lensman]

I think you are wrong on Bush Sr. IIRC, he inherited his recession from Reagan and manages to turn it around in the latter part of his presidency, except that the recovery was in slow motion. The public didn't start to feel the effects until after he was gone.

Seems I only remembered it half right. There was a brief recession in 90-91 but the recovery was very slow, with unemployment only falling in 92. Driven by the 1-2 punch of oil jumping in price (the first gulf war and the run-up and aftermath) and the defense drawdown after since the cold war had ended at the same time. 10% of all defense contractor jobs went bye bye and this had a cascade effect on other sectors.