All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[PwrdOn]

I think some people are just frustrated at the talk of some Bernie supporters not voting in November. The Democrats will need every vote they can get.

That said, I get it.... having to constantly choose between what you perceive as the lesser of 2 evils after a certain point has gotta be frustrating.

I mean, you can't try to compare Bernie supporters to Trump voters on one hand, and then expect us to come out and vote for Biden on the other. I feel like too often we get treated as if we're these rowdy children that need to be brought in line, but unlike what centrists might think, not having any beliefs or principles doesn't somehow make you wise or enlightened. If Bernie had gotten the nomination, moderates would have defected in droves to vote for Trump and no one would have said a mean word to them for it, because of course when your only choice is between a fascist clown and a guy trying to give everyone healthcare, it's pretty much a pick your poison scenario.

[Maine Starfish]

I think some people are just frustrated at the talk of some Bernie supporters not voting in November. The Democrats will need every vote they can get.

That said, I get it.... having to constantly choose between what you perceive as the lesser of 2 evils after a certain point has gotta be frustrating.

Frustration is understandable, and sure hopefully everyone turns out to vote in November. Though I don’t really blame people in non swing states if they vote third party.

But it’s also frustrating for Sanders supporters like myself, anytime we offer any criticism of Biden or anyone else’s policies, we are labeled and generalized as mean Bernie Bros, and accused of attacking people, and spewing vitriol. Just because of a few other people being jerks on social media.

@Gray Lensman for my part, I haven’t attacked anyone, and I’m not spewing vitriol, I’m just offering my thoughts and opinions. And yes that includes criticism of Biden and his moderate policies.

[trooper_thorn]

Obama left the White House with a 59% approval rating.

Biden doesn't need anyone who didn't care for President Obama.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/116479/...-approval.aspx

Bill Clinton was around 66%. How'd that work out for Al Gore? Or Hillary for that matter?

[Gray Lensman]

I mean, you can't try to compare Bernie supporters to Trump voters on one hand, and then expect us to come out and vote for Biden on the other. I feel like too often we get treated as if we're these rowdy children that need to be brought in line, but unlike what centrists might think, not having any beliefs or principles doesn't somehow make you wise or enlightened. If Bernie had gotten the nomination, moderates would have defected in droves to vote for Trump and no one would have said a mean word to them for it, because of course when your only choice is between a fascist clown and a guy trying to give everyone healthcare, it's pretty much a pick your poison scenario.

When I refer to the toxic Bernie supporters I'm not thinking of you - it's another someone who always seems to be in a rage, and some other guy who always bolds everything he types, which comes across as similar to ALL CAPS.

And to be honest, not everyone who is a centrist lacks principles, it's just that the principles are different. And the majority of posters here seem to have been Warren supporters, which puts them closer to the center than Sanders, but doesn't make them centrists by any realistic test - the second furthest to the left out of a dozen or so would be considered on the left by just about everyone. Which also means that they are the ones who have felt the sting of the toxic mentality being demonstrated by a few.

[Gray Lensman]

Frustration is understandable, and sure hopefully everyone turns out to vote in November. Though I don’t really blame people in non swing states if they vote third party.

But it’s also frustrating for Sanders supporters like myself, anytime we offer any criticism of Biden or anyone else’s policies, we are labeled and generalized as mean Bernie Bros, and accused of attacking people, and spewing vitriol. Just because of a few other people being jerks on social media.

@Gray Lensman for my part, I haven’t attacked anyone, and I’m not spewing vitriol, I’m just offering my thoughts and opinions. And yes that includes criticism of Biden and his moderate policies.

I wasn't referring to you - although I think if I name them I might summon an angry mod. You've been pretty civil throughout.

[TheDarman]

That response was so classy I felt I should have worn a monocle while reading it.

I appreciate it man. I’m not trying to be inconsiderate of other people’s viewpoints, unfair, or perceived as being aggressive. I really want to understand others’ viewpoints and for us to discuss our different ideas to inform one another.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Frustration is understandable, and sure hopefully everyone turns out to vote in November. Though I don’t really blame people in non swing states if they vote third party.

Understanding shouldn't be acceptance, doing that helps Trump. General elections are all hands on deck situations.

But it’s also frustrating for Sanders supporters like myself, anytime we offer any criticism of Biden or anyone else’s policies, we are labeled and generalized as mean Bernie Bros, and accused of attacking people, and spewing vitriol. Just because of a few other people being jerks on social media.

You can offer criticism of Biden without being abusive or supporting abusers, and you are a perfectly fine poster. Wish we had more like you here. The only people who have made those attacks are Bernie Bros supporters here who are weaponising those against Democrats operating in good faith. They deliberately blur the lines between the Bros and rational Sanders supporters so they're shielded from criticism. There are other people who are jerks on social media for other candaites but none have reached the toxicity that Bernie Bros do. There are no Democratic politicians, DNC staffers or delegates who have been stalked, threatened or had coordinated sexist attacks like the snake emoji against Warren.

@Gray Lensman for my part, I haven’t attacked anyone, and I’m not spewing vitriol, I’m just offering my thoughts and opinions. And yes that includes criticism of Biden and his moderate policies.

Which is fine, but pay attention to the leftist posters here who do get out of line because they're going to be using you as a shield.

[shooshoomanjoe]

Bill Clinton was around 66%. How'd that work out for Al Gore? Or Hillary for that matter?

They both won the popular vote. The US needs to do away with the electoral college.

[PwrdOn]

When I refer to the toxic Bernie supporters I'm not thinking of you - it's another someone who always seems to be in a rage, and some other guy who always bolds everything he types, which comes across as similar to ALL CAPS.

And to be honest, not everyone who is a centrist lacks principles, it's just that the principles are different. And the majority of posters here seem to have been Warren supporters, which puts them closer to the center than Sanders, but doesn't make them centrists by any realistic test - the second furthest to the left out of a dozen or so would be considered on the left by just about everyone. Which also means that they are the ones who have felt the sting of the toxic mentality being demonstrated by a few.

If you think about it though, Bernie would really be considered a centrist by any reasonable standard, the policies he's advocating are taken for granted in much of the rest of the world and, if the legacy of the red scare hadn't tainted socialism with such a negative connotation, would probably have near universal support among Americans. Just think about how angry people are getting now over hoarders buying up all the TP and hand sanitizer and trying to resell it at a profit, or by being forced to stay home from work yet still having to pay rent and bills, or airlines that spent billions in stock buybacks now with cap in hand asking for a bailout. These and many other problems have repeatedly demonstrated the fundamental truth that while free markets are great when the economy is thriving and everybody is getting rich, they are quite inadequate at addressing basic societal needs when things go south, and downturns will inevitably happen because the nature of capitalism is to proceed in boom and bust cycles rather than steady, stable growth. Americans seem to want to be able to live as freely and irresponsibly as we want when times are good, but for the government to solve all of our problems when shit hits the fan, and that's just not going to work, not with all of these structural issues in our society that will continue to rear their ugly heads time and time again. We need a more systematic, long term approach that, yes, does limit your freedom to be a selfish asshole, but hopefully makes us all better off in the end, and in a sustainable and responsible manner. This, I would argue, is the mature, moderate approach between authoritarianism on one hand and free markets run amok on the other. What we call "centrist" in America is really just cowardice and capitulation to entrenched interests masquerading as wisdom, and we can't afford any more of that.

[trooper_thorn]

They both won the popular vote. The US needs to do away with the electoral college.

And that's not happening without a civil war.

But either way the argument about the popular vote ignores the fact that the politicians play to win by the set rules and all candidates are aware of them and subject to them. Arguing otherwise is akin to claiming you won the Super Bowl because you gained the most yards.

[Tazirai]

All sources I consumed. All of them are the left version of Fox News (“the other guys are pure EVIL” or “you can’t trust anyone who ISN’T us”). It’s real bad. But you do you.

(I also don’t get my news from CNN, MSNBC, or Fox. But TYT and the like often did pull from those sources before offering their own spin.)



There we go again with the slur of “centrist”. As I laid out in the post, very few of us are actually “moderate” in the party. Most of us pretty consistently to the left. Just because we don’t necessarily like Sanders more than Biden doesn’t mean that we don’t like a lot of his ideas or would love to see them realized one day.

I’m not too terribly “triggered” most of the time by what you post. I just find it often lacks significant context of fairness. I welcome you to point that out substantively when I omit appropriate context. Most of the time though it is just railing on “centrists” and people you disagree with without ever engaging in the substance in the post. And that is fine too. You don’t owe me a response of any kind, least of all anything substantive. I just think you might be projecting a little here by insisting that we are the ones who get triggered when mentioning issues with the party when most of the people who respond to you seem to trigger you into engaging in platitudes on how corrupt the establishment and “centrists” are.

I’m always welcome to discuss where past politicians have failed. And I, too, have a preferred politician in Barack Obama. I’ve always been upfront about that. I don’t fault you for liking your guy either. I may fault you for the rhetoric you engage in on his behalf, sure, but I’d also appreciate it if you did the same for me. We should have constructive debates on this stuff—not name-calling. Because, believe it or not, you and I have more in common than Mets and I do. And I can still engage with him without vitriol being directed at either party.



I don’t know if I’ve seen Paul lie or smear anyone. I don’t even recall him name-calling. I do think he engages, from time to time, with arguments a la reductio ad absurdum, but I think we all have a tendency to do that from time to time. If you would enlighten about specific examples of these, however, I would be happy to review them.



Bernie Sanders seems to have liked Joe Biden—and still seems to. It is a shame that you disagree. But it is your prerogative not to like a candidate.



I wrote four paragraphs on my understanding of politics and how change works. And if all you got from that is, “I don’t actually want anyone to have a better life” I don’t know what to say except that I’m disappointed that is the way you received that.

Darman... seriously...
When did Centrist become a Slur?
Are you serious right now?
Centrist is now a slur?

To the other highlighted section. Where did I attack you on " I don't actually want anyone to have a better life."
That was nowhere even aimed at you. Right before that I talked about the Establishment, You seem to have taken it personal.

I appreciate it man. I’m not trying to be inconsiderate of other people’s viewpoints, unfair, or perceived as being aggressive. I really want to understand others’ viewpoints and for us to discuss our different ideas to inform one another.

I get what you're saying here, but even Aja comes across as passive-aggressive when it comes to replying to people. YOU may think you're being kind and gracious but it comes across as not actually listening to people you claim to want to listen to. I won't ask you to go back and read how you respond to people. But it comes across as "yes dear, now run and play." Aja does the same thing when you post links about the information he/she asks for.

So I'm glad you feel that way, but in reality it comes across as patronizing. I at least know I can be an ass and actually aggressive at times lol.

[Kirby101]

And that's not happening without a civil war.

But either way the argument about the popular vote ignores the fact that the politicians play to win by the set rules and all candidates are aware of them and subject to them. Arguing otherwise is akin to claiming you won the Super Bowl because you gained the most yards.

Its claiming you won when the refs give the other team an extra touchdown. The game is fixed. Gore actually won Florida as well as the popular vote. But the refs decided to give it to Bush. And the last election stunk so bad they could smell it in Moscow. Making the Dems overcome GOP cheating is not the sign of a true Democracy.

[Steel Inquisitor]

If you think about it though, Bernie would really be considered a centrist by any reasonable standard, the policies he's advocating are taken for granted in much of the rest of the world and, if the legacy of the red scare hadn't tainted socialism with such a negative connotation, would probably have near universal support among Americans. Just think about how angry people are getting now over hoarders buying up all the TP and hand sanitizer and trying to resell it at a profit, or by being forced to stay home from work yet still having to pay rent and bills, or airlines that spent billions in stock buybacks now with cap in hand asking for a bailout. These and many other problems have repeatedly demonstrated the fundamental truth that while free markets are great when the economy is thriving and everybody is getting rich, they are quite inadequate at addressing basic societal needs when things go south, and downturns will inevitably happen because the nature of capitalism is to proceed in boom and bust cycles rather than steady, stable growth. Americans seem to want to be able to live as freely and irresponsibly as we want when times are good, but for the government to solve all of our problems when shit hits the fan, and that's just not going to work, not with all of these structural issues in our society that will continue to rear their ugly heads time and time again. We need a more systematic, long term approach that, yes, does limit your freedom to be a selfish asshole, but hopefully makes us all better off in the end, and in a sustainable and responsible manner. This, I would argue, is the mature, moderate approach between authoritarianism on one hand and free markets run amok on the other. What we call "centrist" in America is really just cowardice and capitulation to entrenched interests masquerading as wisdom, and we can't afford any more of that.

What is this approach you're convincing us to buy into?

[Tazirai]

When I refer to the toxic Bernie supporters I'm not thinking of you - it's another someone who always seems to be in a rage, and some other guy who always bolds everything he types, which comes across as similar to ALL CAPS.

And to be honest, not everyone who is a centrist lacks principles, it's just that the principles are different. And the majority of posters here seem to have been Warren supporters, which puts them closer to the center than Sanders, but doesn't make them centrists by any realistic test - the second furthest to the left out of a dozen or so would be considered on the left by just about everyone. Which also means that they are the ones who have felt the sting of the toxic mentality being demonstrated by a few.

I'm gonna assume you mean me lol.
I'm never angry at anyone on here. You guys honestly don't have that power. This is why I get mad at the Establishment and Centrists, But I take it out on the articles I post. I ignore Paul for the most part. The rest of you I just kinda shake my head when I type. There is literally no anger at any of you on a personal level. I'm not even raging. I'm aggressive, and aggressive has bad connotations to people who aren't used to seeing people fight with passion.

I've tried nice with the Democratic party, and being nice gets us nowhere. Being nice got us Trump, and if the party isn't careful it'll get us Trump again.

Also, Lensman is a great series of books.

[PwrdOn]

What is this approach you're convincing us to buy into?

We need to build an economic system that adequately compensates people based on what they contribute to society, not how good they are at taking from others. Solve this core issue, and everything else more or less falls into line right behind that.