All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[Tami]

I think that what really sucks right now is that however strongly one may feel that either Bernie or Biden is such an incredibly terrible choice who cannot win, if the current delegate count is any indication, then approximately half of the people you need on your side unfortunately disagree with you, vehemently so.

The Democratic vote seems disastrously split, and it's not just a vocal minority of online "Bernie Bros", or a small cabal of backroom establishment politicians rigging it for the moderates. There seem to be many people in both camps who feel very strongly, and at this point, when we really need to see a common path ... seems like we are more divided than ever. I don't doubt that the majority will ultimately support whoever gets the nomination, but it will be a grudging support, versus people who are inexplicably still very excited for Trump.

I don't think Warren throwing her support behind either Biden or Bernie at this point will sway the majority who currently prefer one over the other. The only thing that possibly could would be if one of the two front-runners dropped out, to throw his support behind the other and spend the rest of the campaign season loudly proclaiming that we need to be all on board together, if we are to have any chance at all.

And of course, that's not going to happen. So, four more years of Trump. Goddamnit, America.

I think you are underestimating the tenacity of the Democratic Party. I have seen it up close for some time now.

[Mecegirl]

The relationship between Warren and Sanders almost reminds me of the relationship of an abused spouse and her abuser.

I hope she doesn't endorse anyone, it won't help her or anyone.

I hope she doesn't endorse anyone either.

Also I do hope she speaks out like she says she will. https://twitter.com/NBCPolitics/stat...e4uOj3PG7iS010

[Tazirai]

The relationship between Warren and Sanders almost reminds me of the relationship of an abused spouse and her abuser.

I hope she doesn't endorse anyone, it won't help her or anyone.

Thanks for smearing people Tami. That's a really shitty thing to say, But don't attack each other right? #unity.
There is no bounds with you guys, as long as it shits on Sanders it's okay.

(continued from last post)

I don't know about up-and-down the social ladder. Bernie is pretty monolithic in his focus on the working class. Those policies, should they be enacted, would yield positive benefits towards those at the lower end of the socioeconomic ladder. I agree and I would love to see those plans come to fruition. And, maybe, if we had elected Hillary Clinton in 2016, we would only be four more years away from another Democrat like Sanders (AOC perhaps) taking up those reins and pursuing these policies without fear of a Supreme Court majority striking it down. But, now, Scalia's seat that opened up a whole year before Obama left office has been filled by Gorsuch--a guy who protected a truck company over a trucker who would've frozen to death if he hadn't abandoned his cargo. And Justice Kennedy's seat, a seat which held the swing vote on the Court, was filled by Kavanaugh--whose issues have long been litigated in this thread. Bill Clinton gave us Ruth Bader Ginsburg. If nothing else, the liberal justices would have said, "It isn't for us to decide on these issues, but, rather, for Congress and the people to make these decisions." But, no, we didn't vote en masse around the country to ensure Hillary Clinton, who was a policy wonk, just like Warren was this time, with clear and concrete plans for everything, would be the president to pick the replacements for these Justices. And so now we can only hope that we stop Trump from making the bench a 7-2 conservative dominated court.



I respect it. I've always respected idealists. But I do doubt their ability to lead and make compromises. The place for Sanders is right where he is at--fighting the good fight as the figurehead of a movement and being a thorn in Biden's side if he doesn't listen to progressives he needs to win over in order to keep his job. And, no, I don't have ANY illusions about the fact that Republicans WILL NOT help Biden with his agenda any more than they will help Sanders or they did Obama.

I saw Obama's eight years. I saw him take moderate economic stances (which I do agree with and I know many progressives don't) about allowing for inner cities to be tax free havens for businesses and continuing free trade programs with more worker protections than there had ever been (seriously, read the TPP--this thing was all about IP protection and reducing copyright protections on prescription drugs and putting in place environmental standards in other countries and putting in place mandatory compliance with labor laws which would even the playing field) that won him no support from Republicans. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

However, Biden does have an edge against Sanders on another demographic that is very important: moderate Democrats. Regardless of how well we do in the upcoming election, we will not have enough "safe blue" seats in the Senate or the House for a few Democrats not to have their feet held to the fire. How do they go back to their majority conservative districts and explain why they voted for "socialized medicine"? Frankly, I agree with Sanders that there are too many market failures and that the government should take care of health care. But how on earth are we supposed to accomplish that when conservative voters don't see it that way? If moderate Democrats see their careers at stake with these votes they, like all politicians, won't vote for it. And, frankly, if people in their district don't want it, they shouldn't vote for it. They are there to represent them and their interests.

You know what a public option DOES accomplish? It brings a government-based plan into the fore, which can be completely subsidized for poorer folks with Obamacare subsidies, and allows for all of us to buy into government health care. When it becomes clear that this is the better option and that it is more cost-efficient for what we get, private health care companies will naturally be reduced to nothing because they can't compete. The government will have a plan that isn't priced for profit. That is something insurance companies can't say. We get to virtually universal health care much quicker this way and it allows for government health care to win in a marketplace. This is a plan that moderate Democrats can defend as a cost control measure AND it provides health care to everyone, virtually free of charge if you can't afford it.

This is what I mean. This is why we can't just worry about Republicans supporting things. We need the whole party behind us if we are going to pass anything BECAUSE Republicans won't be fair and they won't support these bills. Sanders can't get the full party behind him.



I don't think it does. FDR and LBJ were worse social justice leaders than Barack Obama. Bet you can't guess which ones were primarily focused on economic programs to help the "working class" and which one was looking to ensure justice for racial, ethnic, and sexual minorities. I'll give you a hint--the latter rhymes with Sarack Lebama.



See, I believe most progressives truly do care. But a few in the progressive camp are willing to buy into campaigns that don't really take a critical look at these issues without a second thought.

And, sorry, but I've seen progressives slander people who agree with Obama and Biden on economic issues as "corportatist" and "establishment" or that they "hate poor people". So, let's not pretend that generalizing outwards from what we have seen among the worst supporters on each side hasn't been a practice used by both progressives and moderates.



You've seen Trump talk right? And, again, this isn't anything that Biden supporters don't know about him. He has never been a great communicator. But it doesn't mean that he has some kind of mental faculty decline. We have medical records that are verified to come from real doctors that this just isn't the case. But we do know that Sanders has had a heart attack. What do you think the life expectancy is for someone of his age after they've had a serious heart attack like that? Especially when they want to take on a stressful job? Hint: it isn't two terms.

Also, I will not give these guys any clicks. People like him and Jimmy Dore argued that we should let Trump take last election and then maybe after four years of terribleness we might finally get a revolution. The level of privilege you have to have to make that argument--let people suffer so that I can get the policies I want--is astronomic. They aren't reliable. They're shills for Sanders...to the detriment of the country if need be.

Kyle is Fine, Jimmy Dore is terrible.
Before dissing him, you should listen to him for a minute, because Kyle has NEVER said what Jimmy did.

I hope she doesn't endorse anyone either.

Also I do hope she speaks out like she says she will. https://twitter.com/NBCPolitics/stat...e4uOj3PG7iS010

#unity right?

[Tazirai]

Last month

The thread. Joe Rogan kind of endorses Sanders. People threatened not to vote for Sander, and called Rogan all sorts of names and shitted on his viewers, and tried to get Sanders to denounce him.

This month

The thread. Mike Bloomberg, and avowed racist, and authoritarian, HIM? He's fine we're gonna use his money to defeat Trump and racism...

Me the black guy looking at the thread...LMAO. It's lost.

Biden will get John Kerried so hard. BUT he's CIVIL and is about Incrementalism... Also, I don't want change, even though I say I want change.

Democrats are done. Bookmarking this post. lol.

[TheDarman]

Last month

The thread. Joe Rogan kind of endorses Sanders. People threatened not to vote for Sander, and called Rogan all sorts of names and shitted on his viewers, and tried to get Sanders to denounce him.

This month

The thread. Mike Bloomberg, and avowed racist, and authoritarian, HIM? He's fine we're gonna use his money to defeat Trump and racism...

Me the black guy looking at the thread...LMAO. It's lost.

Biden will get John Kerried so hard. BUT he's CIVIL and is about Incrementalism... Also, I don't want change, even though I say I want change.

Democrats are done. Bookmarking this post. lol.

Nah. I hate Mike Bloomberg. And I don’t care who he endorses. I also didn’t care when Joe Rogan did it. Why? Because they are both equally awful. The only difference is Mike Bloomberg was in a position of power to actually enact his awful agenda. Joe Rogan just whines about transgender people from his studio and invites on horrible “leftist” trolls.

But I understand why both wanted to play up their endorsements—it was a way to build their coalition. I don’t fault Biden or Sanders for that too terribly much. Though I do think we do need to do a better job of sidelining guys like them.

That said, if Bloomberg wants to continue to get under Trump’s skin and throw money at ads to take him down, I’m all for it. At least that is better than Rogan saying days later that “maybe we’re better off with Trump.” The kind of privilege you have to have to make that statement.

By the by, I have watched Kyle’s stuff. Believe it or not, Tazirai, I actually was a VERY progressive person in my early college years and watched TYT and Secular Talk (pun-intended) religiously. I kind of woke up to the vitriol of it and how it was coloring my view of people I loved and respected. And it was also distorting my view of what was actually possible with political realities. Kyle wasn’t as bad as Jimmy Dore, but he said if you were in a safe state, like New York, California, or Pennsylvania (oops) to go ahead and vote third party if you felt better about it.

[Tendrin]

I don't recall threatening to 'not vote Bernie' over Rogan. I said it was a terrible look for Bernie to broadcast his endorsement, though, and that seems to've largely been the position taken by most people here. Same about Bloomberg: if he wants to help, great, but he's shitty and most of us would never vote for him. Trading an incompetent racist rich white guy for a dangerously competent racist rich white guy one was never a good idea. We can thank Warren for her help ending him.

Sanders absolutely should never have embraced a guy known for transphobia and racism, though, and not broadcasted the endorsement of a guy who compared black people to apes. Guess we saw how that worked out for him with the votes of of black people across the country.

[Mister Mets]

Last month

The thread. Joe Rogan kind of endorses Sanders. People threatened not to vote for Sander, and called Rogan all sorts of names and shitted on his viewers, and tried to get Sanders to denounce him.

This month

The thread. Mike Bloomberg, and avowed racist, and authoritarian, HIM? He's fine we're gonna use his money to defeat Trump and racism...

Me the black guy looking at the thread...LMAO. It's lost.

Biden will get John Kerried so hard. BUT he's CIVIL and is about Incrementalism... Also, I don't want change, even though I say I want change.

Democrats are done. Bookmarking this post. lol.

Bloomberg spoke at the 2016 DNC.

The position of the Democratic party is that he is a great man the voters should listen to.

https://www.vox.com/2016/7/27/123028...tic-convention

[Kirby101]

Bloomberg spoke at the 2016 DNC.

The position of the Democratic party is that he is a great man the voters should listen to.

https://www.vox.com/2016/7/27/123028...tic-convention

Interesting take. Wrong, but interesting. Maybe Dems, who obviously did not support his candidacy, want him to help stop the threat of Trump. And realise, since the GOP does anything, legal or not, to win, they must pull out all the stops.

But great man, sure, if that helps stay in your Party.

[TheDarman]

Warren says that candidates are responsible for their online supporters, including those who do threatening, hurtful things.

Not to take Sanders’ side here, but I think that this might be a bit unfair a standard to have. I mean, a Warren supporter committed a mass shooting. No one is saying that is her fault, but the standard she is applying here could be universalized to include that. Maybe she should take the tact of if supporters do the deed “on your behalf”—you are responsible for controlling the messaging and making sure you are clear about what you feel is an acceptable way to get your message out and what isn’t. But...it certainly doesn’t sound like an endorsement of Bernie is coming, at least not without him coming down and condemning the activity that she is talking about.

[numberthirty]

They passed over 400 bills and put Trump’s dirty laundry out to air for the rest of the country to see. If we don’t do anything with those results in 2020, we are to blame for not following through more than they are for not getting stuff done. 2018 has to be viewed as the first step towards something bigger happening in 2020. The Senate map was the worst it has ever been for one party in nearly a hundred years. That was because in 2012, Obama’s coalition walloped Republicans where there weren’t enormously skewed House districts to protect them. We saw the dissolution of that coalition in 2016 when we had the division in the party. I still think that Biden will be able to get a public option done and moderate Democrats can sell that to voters now more than they could in 2010. My fear with Bernie is he would never compromise for that and we would end up having Medicare For All plans fail despite Democrat control in both chambers and a public option being vetoed by Sanders for not being good enough. As my old Engineering teacher said, “Don’t let ‘better’ be the enemy of ‘good enough’.” And I fear that Sanders will let things get worse if he doesn’t get his better option. He certainly hasn’t been one to compromise before. Meanwhile, I think if enough people pressure Biden, and more progressive policies come out of Congress, he will give people those things. I don’t see Biden as wanting to sacrifice his popularity to stay with “the man” on issues.

Tend to doubt that...

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2...ot-main-street

Joe Biden Serves Wall Street, Not Main Street

[Steel Inquisitor]

Last month

The thread. Joe Rogan kind of endorses Sanders. People threatened not to vote for Sander, and called Rogan all sorts of names and shitted on his viewers, and tried to get Sanders to denounce him.

This month

The thread. Mike Bloomberg, and avowed racist, and authoritarian, HIM? He's fine we're gonna use his money to defeat Trump and racism...

The Democrats being hypocritical over this would be an angle to mine, except you're whitewashing Rogan and ignoring your own and Sanders own hypocrisy on this subject. This isn't about whether those two are bad people, they are, it's take a cheap shot at the Democrats.

Rogan did this, why are you defending him? He's not progressive, he's Libertarian.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...an-endorsement

The comedian has come under fire for past comments insulting a range of groups, including the transgender community and African Americans.

"We get out. We’re giggling, 'We’re going to go see "Planet of the Apes." We walk into 'Planet of the Apes.' We walked into Africa," Rogan said in a 2013 podcast clip that was resurfaced after his endorsement before clarifying that there were "no white people in the theater."

Did Rogan's mythical voters show up or did Sanders boost Rogan for nothing?

Me the black guy looking at the thread...LMAO. It's lost.

Biden will get John Kerried so hard. BUT he's CIVIL and is about Incrementalism... Also, I don't want change, even though I say I want change.

Maybe he will, but he'll have a better chance at winning then Bernie Sanders. He's not going to randomly praise Stalin in the middle of a presidential debate.

Democrats are done. Bookmarking this post. lol.

You don't need to bookmark anything, you're just admitting where you'e always stood with the party.

[Theleviathan]

Warren says that candidates are responsible for their online supporters, including those who do threatening, hurtful things.

Not to take Sanders’ side here, but I think that this might be a bit unfair a standard to have. I mean, a Warren supporter committed a mass shooting. No one is saying that is her fault, but the standard she is applying here could be universalized to include that. Maybe she should take the tact of if supporters do the deed “on your behalf”—you are responsible for controlling the messaging and making sure you are clear about what you feel is an acceptable way to get your message out and what isn’t. But...it certainly doesn’t sound like an endorsement of Bernie is coming, at least not without him coming down and condemning the activity that she is talking about.

Yeah, if I'm a Bernie supporter.....that right there is all I need to see to know she ain't endorsing him.

[numberthirty]

The relationship between Warren and Sanders almost reminds me of the relationship of an abused spouse and her abuser.

I hope she doesn't endorse anyone, it won't help her or anyone.

The best case for her to just sit the sidelines is simple.

Endorsing Biden when he is not for Medicare For All is going to look like she never believed in it to start with. It could completely kneecap any shot she would have at running on it in the future.

Which is absolutely what she should do.

[numberthirty]

...

Maybe he will, but he'll have a better chance at winning then Bernie Sanders. He's not going to randomly praise Stalin in the middle of a presidential debate.

Could be.

On the other hand, that assessment is largely based on polling. Which we should all know is worth what it is. It's certainly not something I would make that statement based on.

[Steel Inquisitor]

The best case for her to just sit the sidelines is simple.

Endorsing Biden when he is not for Medicare For All is going to look like she never believed in it to start with. It could completely kneecap any shot she would have at running on it in the future.

Which is absolutely what she should do.

Medicare for All isn't defined by what Sanders wants.

Could be.

On the other hand, that assessment is largely based on polling. Which we should all know is worth what it is. It's certainly not something I would make that statement based on.

Polling is one part of Sanders flaws. He supported openly Castro in the last debate, comments like that will kill his campaign faster than polling will.