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  1. #10096
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    The other poster claimed they wanted nothing to change so I included it in my statement regarding dishonesty about the Democratic party.

    Likewise it's dishonest to claim that the party that passes civil rights legislation, voting rights protections for "minorities", gay marriage laws, equal pay for women regulations (etc) takes "minority voters for granted".

    Again -- the primary reason most of said legislation doesn't pass or gets rolled back is because of Republicans -- not Democrats.
    I don't agree with your second statement, anyone should be criticized when they behave badly R, D or I after their name. Otherwise, I see what you mean.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  2. #10097
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    That's a completely dishonest statement and you know it is.

    It also gets to the root of the problem -- things won't change as you want them to, so Sanders' supporters will even attack allies to get their own way.

    That said no one "expects" you to do anything -- just remember what goes around comes around, so don't complain when people do the same with Sanders and likewise don't complain when people choose not to support or vote for him or his policies just as you won't support other Democrats.

    Sanders is the one who has changed nothing so far -- he has a respectable political movement but we have yet to see any meaningful legislation as a result.

    That might change in the future but as it stands the Democrats have done far more than Sanders has with regards to progressive legislation.
    I've already told you I don't care if people here don't vote for Sanders. We "ATTACK" on policy, yes. My memory is very good, so yes, I expect Democrats I don't support to not support me. I'm okay with that. That's why I'll work to get rid of them. /shrug.
    I don't know how much clearer I need to make it to you guys. I'm NOT a fan of the modern Democratic Party. They are literally having talks about superdelegates taking the election away from the person who is winning in the polls and actually winning.
    These morons today, said that they are here to protect the Republic, not Democracy...


    https://www.sanders.senate.gov/legislative-landmarks

    http://addictinginfo.com/2016/02/19/...ith-citations/

  3. #10098
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    It's a blatantly dishonest comment -- the Democratic party has passed plenty of progressive legislation over past few decades.

    Some people just take it for granted and assume their candidate can do better despite having no real record of doing so.
    I literally posted his record below. feel free to take a look.

  4. #10099
    "Comic Book Reviewer" InformationGeek's Avatar
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    While the stock market falls, the coronavirus expands into the US, and many, MANY other countless things to consider are going on, what is Trump up to?

    Trump spent 45 minutes today w/producers behind a play that dramatized the text messages between FBI agents Peter Strzok and Lisa Page, complaining about why "some people are in prison and others aren't." He is now meeting with Diamond and Silk and others.

  5. #10100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I don't agree with your second statement, anyone should be criticized when they behave badly R, D or I after their name. Otherwise, I see what you mean.
    It has nothing to do with "criticism" -- Democrats propose "minority" focused legislation (voting rights protections, LGBT protections, women's rights protections, etc, etc, etc) all of the time but the Republican party blocks it or rolls it back.

    You don't have to agree with anything -- it's a fact that Democrats propose and pass progressive legislation and Republicans either block or roll it back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tazirai View Post
    I literally posted his record below. feel free to take a look.
    This isn't about an individual "record" -- this is about the lie that Democrats want to "change nothing" while ignoring Sanders lack of success in comparison.

    I don't expect you to change but likewise don't expect people not to call you out for lying about the Democratic party.

    You know -- the party Sanders hopes to "unify" if he wins while you sit here and claim you won't support other Democrats.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 02-27-2020 at 05:26 PM.

  6. #10101
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    I remember when Justin Amash was the DAHLINK! of the Democrats in their shitty attempt to impeach Trump.
    But look at how he votes...
    Can we PLEASE stop believing the GOP has good intentions when it comes to helping people?
    Rep. Amash among 4 lawmakers to vote against anti-lynching bill

    Amash said he voted no because lynching is already illegal on the federal level and that the authority of filing criminal charges should belong to the state.

    “Creating federal crimes for matters that are normally handled by the state obscures which government — federal or state — is responsible for investigating and prosecuting the crime, and it gives power to unelected federal officials whom voters can’t directly hold accountable,” Amash tweeted. “This allows state officials who don’t adequately address particular crimes to shift blame and avoid accountability. At the same time, it creates an incentive for budget-constrained state and local governments not to prosecute crimes and instead leave it to the feds.”

    Amash's office didn't respond to Metro Times' request for an interview.

  7. #10102
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    It has nothing to do with "criticism" -- Democrats propose "minority" focused legislation (voting rights protections, LGBT protections, women's rights protections, etc, etc, etc) all of the time but the Republican party blocks it or rolls it back.

    You don't have to agree with anything -- it's a fact that Democrats propose and pass progressive legislation and Republicans either block or roll it back.
    I thought in many of those cases the courts took the first step rather than politicians. The Dems did the right thing but often a nudge from the courts was required first.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  8. #10103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I thought in many of those cases the courts took the first step rather than politicians. The Dems did the right thing but often a nudge from the courts was required first.
    In general legislation goes from the House to the Senate to the White House and each has to vote on whether they support it.

    The Democrats constantly propose legislation when they control the House while McConnell refuses to even bring said legislation up for a Senate vote.

    Meanwhile, Trump rolls back nearly everything progressive done by the Obama administration while in the White House.

    Here's a link to just a few of them: https://civilrights.org/trump-rollbacks/

    Prior to that the Republicans controlled the House and likewise would block or obstruct any and all progressive legislation whenever possible.

    So long as the Republicans control even one aspect of Congress they won't allow progressive legislation to be passed, whether health care or civil rights.

    This is why many people don't trust Sanders in that respect -- he has yet to say how he will overcome that problem.

    And that's why I constantly keep pointing out that the real problem is the Republican party -- especially if you believe in progressive policies.

    So far as the courts go, Trump and McConnell are likewise moving to control that as well -- McConnell refused to vote on many of Obama's appointments, including a Supreme Court pick, which he then used to bait Republicans into voting for Trump so they could have majority control of the Judiciary branch.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 02-27-2020 at 05:45 PM.

  9. #10104
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    In general legislation goes from the House to the Senate to the White House and each has to vote on whether they support it.....
    I'm aware of how the process works. I also know about this -

    "On June 26, 2015, the U.S. Supreme Court held in a 5–4 decision that the Fourteenth Amendment requires all states to grant same-sex marriages and recognize same-sex marriages granted in other states."


    Pretty much every civil right has come out of court decessions which forced legislation to play catch up.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  10. #10105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Pretty much every civil right has come out of court decessions which forced legislation to play catch up.
    That sounds completely anecdotal, especially given all of the progressive and civil rights legislation passed under Obama alone.

    https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazi...nts-revisited/

    Whatever he didn't get passed, it wasn't for lack of effort -- it was primarily because Republicans controlled the House and then the Senate.

    More to the point, I disagree with the claim that Democrats take minorities for granted -- it's more about Americans supporting people like Trump, Boehner and McConnell than Democrats not attempting to pass progressive legislation that also protects the rights of minorities.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 02-27-2020 at 05:54 PM.

  11. #10106
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    ....More to the point, I disagree with the claim that Democrats take minorities for granted -- it's more about Americans supporting people like Trump, Boehner and McConnell than Democrats not attempting to pass progressive legislation that also protects the rights of minorities.
    A little bit of both.

    But we'll agree to disagree because I've personally seen evidence of such, so I can't say they don't (sometimes) do so with a straight face.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  12. #10107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    A little bit of both.

    But we'll agree to disagree because I've personally seen evidence of such, so I can't say they don't (sometimes) do so with a straight face.
    I'd never argue they don't but I'd likewise say it's important to differentiate between candidates like Buttigieg, Obama, Biden, Sanders, Kamala, and others in that respect -- I wouldn't even say candidates like Buttigieg or Sanders take said support for granted so much as it was just a non-issue for them until they decided to run on a national stage.

    It's a generalization I wouldn't apply to the party as a whole given their record on civil rights, imperfect as it might be.

    Meanwhile, Republicans are openly attacking "minority" rights and rolling back both progressive and civil rights legislation passed by Democrats.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 02-27-2020 at 06:17 PM.

  13. #10108
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    Just to be clear, I know where you're coming from, and below is an article that likewise expresses a similar point of view.

    But it's not fair not to ignore efforts like DACA and police reform while discussing whether Democrats make any real efforts to address minority concerns.

    -----
    "Democrats, You Must Engage and Persuade Minority Voters"

    "Ignoring African American, Asian, Latino, or immigrant communities could prove fatal to the Democrats’ cause in 2020. The old grip-and-grin photo ops won’t cut it anymore. African Americans have proven themselves time and again to be the most loyal and dependable voting bloc in the Democratic Party. But that’s led entirely too many candidates to take this community for granted, believing they don’t need to court our votes because we’re a forgone conclusion.

    Unfortunately, when that happens, black voters don’t suddenly start casting Republican ballots…we just stay home.

    Understand this: In a community that has seen as many broken promises as ours has, voter apathy is not a hypothetical danger. Moreover, in an age of stricter ballot box ID requirements and registration roll purges, voter suppression is real. From working multiple jobs that don’t give you time off on Election Day to lacking reliable transportation to the polls to the myriad threats that show up that first week of November, the obstacles between us and the ballot box are real. So you have to give us a reason to face them.

    The same is true for Latino voters, widely considered to be the fastest growing and, increasingly, most decisive constituency group.

    Explain to me, when Republican are doubling down on family separation, draconian detention and “building the wall,” every single Democratic candidate isn’t courting the Hispanic community with every breath? Explain to me why every pamphlet, mailer and meme isn’t produced in Spanish as well in English? Explain to me why only one candidate has a Latino coordinator in Nevada, South Carolina, and California?

    Look, the truth is that the GOP has long feared losing the “sleeping giant” that is the Hispanic vote in America -- and with good reason. Imagine flipping 38 electoral votes in Texas, 29 in Florida and 11 in Arizona. Imagine picking up Senate seats in Arizona and Colorado. Imagine sweeping governor’s races across the Southwest.

    But bringing this vision to fruition takes more than the casual mention of immigration reform or demonstrating some high school Spanish on the debate stage. It takes actual commitment and real investment -- not just to penetrate a community that lives under constant treat, but to activate them, register them, and mobilize them on Election Day."


    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...rs_141909.html
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 02-27-2020 at 06:37 PM.

  14. #10109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    A little bit of both.

    But we'll agree to disagree because I've personally seen evidence of such, so I can't say they don't (sometimes) do so with a straight face.
    The problem is that there is a large gap between all the Democrats taking minorities for granted and bad elements of the party doing it. The evidence is about the latter, not an indictment that the Democrats are an institution which can't be saved.

    As well as the fact what aja_christopher says is true about the massive wall of obstruction the GOP does to progressives legalisation, it's not like the Democrats haven't tried their best to put progressive bills though congress. Which isn't something to write off as the Democrats fault.

  15. #10110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    The problem is that there is a large gap between all the Democrats taking minorities for granted and bad elements of the party doing it. The evidence is about the latter, not an indictment that the Democrats are an institution which can't be saved.

    As well as the fact what aja_christopher says is true about the massive wall of obstruction the GOP does to progressives legalisation, it's not like the Democrats haven't tried their best to put progressive bills though congress. Which isn't something to write off as the Democrats fault.
    Vote Republicans out of power for a decade or so and then marvel at how much progressive legislation gets passed no matter what Democrat is in office.

    Many here seem to think attacking the Democratic party is a better solution however, so I guess we'll see how that works out for them.

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