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  1. #9586
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    Well, I don't agree with this. I think Bernie has a sizable segment of his support that is a cult of personality. I don't believe that many of them would just line up behind someone else necessarily. Hell, I'd argue Warren's plans have just as much ability to help people and have a much more realistic path to enactment. Yet people are not lining up behind her. In fact, her effort to make a concrete plan that could actually get passed through Congress has been a point of attack on her by Bernie supporters. Elizabeth Warren is the only progressive on that stage whose time in Congress has had real, meaningful change for people. Unfortunately for her, being nuanced and a detailed problem solver is not what voters want regardless of the candidates or the year.

    And let's be clear, Bernie has not put forth much of a "concrete plan". He has ideals he hasn't budged on and has laid out a vision for how he wants to help, but he has mostly dodged the plan part of that. I think that's wise from the perspective of winning an election. Candidates who go into specifics and details get hammered by those details. But let's not pretend about what Bernie has actually laid out.
    Warren doomed her own campaign with that ludicrous two stage plan she put forth. All that anyone read from that was that she was willing to give ground on her policy goals before even getting in office and without any real pressure even aside from the usual talk radio mouth diarrhea. If she had stuck to her guns on that I would think she'd be the clear frontrunner now.

    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    I've never voted republican in my life but I was fully prepared to in 2016 as you would have had to put a gun to my head to vote Hilary Clinton. Then Trump, the one republican I wasn't willing to vote for, got the nomination. So I voted 3rd party.

    If its Bernie vs Trump I'm voting 3rd party again.

    If its any democrat besides Warren (who I consider Bernie lite) I'm gladly voting for that democrat.

    Bernie excites the radical left but those of us in the moderate area see him full of hot air, unfullfillable promises, and a guarantee that Trump wins re-election.

    Some like to make the argument that Clinton was a moderate and couldn't win so we have to nominate someone further left. That ignores the fact that Hilary Clinton is one of the most reviled people in politics. Just like with Trump there is no middle ground, you either love em or despise them. She lost votes in a lot of places by people being unwilling to vote for her whereas if it had been someone likable without all the Clinton baggage like Biden had he run then he would have destroyed Trump in a landslide. Biden has his issues, many due to age, but he is a likable person and there isn't the utter hate thing going on with him as there is with Clinton.
    You see moderates, THIS is the kind of voter you're supposedly reaching out to by waffling on everything. I personally don't see any need for you or any of your ilk in our tent, and I know there are enough decent folks out there that we can win without you, go ahead and vote Trump.

  2. #9587
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    Well, I don't agree with this. I think Bernie has a sizable segment of his support that is a cult of personality. I don't believe that many of them would just line up behind someone else necessarily. Hell, I'd argue Warren's plans have just as much ability to help people and have a much more realistic path to enactment. Yet people are not lining up behind her. In fact, her effort to make a concrete plan that could actually get passed through Congress has been a point of attack on her by Bernie supporters. Elizabeth Warren is the only progressive on that stage whose time in Congress has had real, meaningful change for people. Unfortunately for her, being nuanced and a detailed problem solver is not what voters want regardless of the candidates or the year.

    And let's be clear, Bernie has not put forth much of a "concrete plan". He has ideals he hasn't budged on and has laid out a vision for how he wants to help, but he has mostly dodged the plan part of that. I think that's wise from the perspective of winning an election. Candidates who go into specifics and details get hammered by those details. But let's not pretend about what Bernie has actually laid out.
    Warren blinked on Medicare For All:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill...g-anyone%3famp

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pol...sanders-044457

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bus...-2019-11%3famp

    I think if Warren didn't blink on this issue, she would have been in a better spot.

    I think this whole idea of Bernie supporters being cultists is just way to avoid discussions about actual policy.

    I still think Warren is the second best choice, but man is she behind. It would take a miracle for her to win now.
    Last edited by The Overlord; 02-23-2020 at 11:27 AM.

  3. #9588
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    Warren blinked on Medicare For All:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill...g-anyone%3famp

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pol...sanders-044457

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bus...-2019-11%3famp

    I think this whole idea of Bernie supporters being cultists is just way to avoid discussions about actual policy.
    I haven't found too many Bernie supporters eager to discuss policy. Bernie himself only talks about it in broadstrokes...so I call BS on that.

    Warren didn't compromise, she was just a realist. Unfortunately, in politics, you get punished for that.

  4. #9589
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Warren doomed her own campaign with that ludicrous two stage plan she put forth. All that anyone read from that was that she was willing to give ground on her policy goals before even getting in office and without any real pressure even aside from the usual talk radio mouth diarrhea. If she had stuck to her guns on that I would think she'd be the clear frontrunner now.
    I don't think her plan is ludicrous at all. In fact, if M4A happens, I suspect it happens much like she laid out.

  5. #9590
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    I don't think her plan is ludicrous at all. In fact, if M4A happens, I suspect it happens much like she laid out.
    Maybe, but it's just bad politics to start broadcasting that you're willing to make concessions long before the primary season has even started, because if she's willing to yield on Medicare for all, what else can Cocaine Mitch and his cronies extract from her? Hold firm and don't give an inch unless you absolutely have to, otherwise you are just throwing away leverage.

  6. #9591
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Maybe, but it's just bad politics to start broadcasting that you're willing to make concessions long before the primary season has even started, because if she's willing to yield on Medicare for all, what else can Cocaine Mitch and his cronies extract from her? Hold firm and don't give an inch unless you absolutely have to, otherwise you are just throwing away leverage.
    I hear that argument. I get why people feel that way emotionally, but Warren is a practical person. It's partly why she has done things for Americans in Congress that Bernie didn't in a fraction of the time served.

    But I don't think it's fair for you to attack other candidates for not laying out a plan when she did precisely that. She did what you asked, with far more specificity than Bernie, and not only did you not support her for it, but used it to bludgeon her campaign. You're not alone, most voters act like that. Perhaps you should be aware of it, though, when you are criticizing candidates.

  7. #9592
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Maybe, but it's just bad politics to start broadcasting that you're willing to make concessions long before the primary season has even started, because if she's willing to yield on Medicare for all, what else can Cocaine Mitch and his cronies extract from her? Hold firm and don't give an inch unless you absolutely have to, otherwise you are just throwing away leverage.
    Showing a willingness to rethink a position, compromise, and be flexible enough to listen to the needs of everyone and work on a solution that is good for as amany as possible is not bad politics.

    Bad Politics is making a claim and sticking with it no matter what. Trump and his wall is a good example, if Bernie can't be flexible (and he did try to get the support of the unions by making a claim that they wouldn't lose their health insurance or something like that), then M4A is going to end up like Trump's Wall.
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  8. #9593
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    I tend to think on the Democrat side, people fall in love with personalities and that’s Bernie’s strength
    I also agree! This is one area that Sanders is especially strong in. More than any of his moderate opponents, he gets people exited.
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  9. #9594
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    The way you phrased that sounds a tad supervillain-ish though, eh? If he wins the nomination, then the establishment will have to work with HIM because he'd be the face of the party and the one driving turnout for down ticket races, if they choose to sabotage him out of spite the only outcome is that Trump will cruise to victory.
    I think anything they do, no matter how innocuous, will be perceived as sabotage by many Sanders supporters.
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  10. #9595
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    As India’s Economy Sags, Even the Trump Brand Is Struggling

    PUNE, India — The apartment buildings rise 23 stories into the skyline, a pair of elegant, jet-black towers buffered from the street by security guards and high fences. The name Trump is displayed in big, gold block letters.

    But within the Trump Towers complex in Pune, in western India, employees say that most of the $2 million apartments are vacant. The pool is frequently empty, sales have slowed and buyers rarely visit.

    The Trump brand once seemed promising to Indian developers. But it, too, is struggling to surmount one of the country’s worst economic slumps in years.

    “In the past, the Trump name may have helped attract investors, but gone are those days,” said Pankaj Kapoor, the managing director of Liases Foras, an Indian real estate research company.
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  11. #9596
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    Bernie excites the radical left but those of us in the moderate area see him full of hot air, unfullfillable promises, and a guarantee that Trump wins re-election.
    The number of Democrats who consider themselves Progressives has been steadily rising the past few years.

    I do agree, however - in order for many of Sanders' ideas to bear fruit, it would take a few Election cycles of liberals coming out in force before we could push some of them through. Americans idiots tend to be very impatient, however, and would dismiss him at the drop of a dime once they see him as ineffectual, when in reality it is the system which will be failing them.
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  12. #9597
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    I haven't found too many Bernie supporters eager to discuss policy. Bernie himself only talks about it in broadstrokes...so I call BS on that.

    Warren didn't compromise, she was just a realist. Unfortunately, in politics, you get punished for that.
    Okay, let's talk policy.

    Why is Biden or Buttiege the best choices based on policies? Why are their policies better than Bernie's?

    You want Buttiege to win? He should have ditched his policy platform and copied Bernie's that is what people want. Buttiege being in his late 30s and speaking several different languages is fine, but it doesn't make him less of an empty suit.


    Also you can't talk emotions out of this equation, politics is not hard science and people are robots, if people feel like Warren blinked and Bernie didn't, that cost her. Successfully making emotional appeals is a strength, not a weakness . Trump does nothing but emotional appeals, you need to counter them.
    Last edited by The Overlord; 02-23-2020 at 11:57 AM.

  13. #9598
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4saken1 View Post
    The number of Democrats who consider themselves Progressives has been steadily rising the past few years.

    I do agree, however - in order for many of Sanders' ideas to bear fruit, it would take a few Election cycles of liberals coming out in force before we could push some of them through. Americans idiots tend to be very impatient, however, and would dismiss him at the drop of a dime once they see him as ineffectual, when in reality it is the system which will be failing them.
    This is what people tend to overlook I think. Look I just voted for Sanders in my primary. And I will vote for him again in the general if hes the candidate. But, for any of his policies to actually get passed we will have to keep Congress for 8 years or more. We can't have midterm backlash, those moderate Dems who would have had to win in red states will somehow have to keep their seats. Because the second GOP win the House or the Senate Bernie will be just as stuck as Obama was. Worse because he and his supporters don't do well with compromise.

    It will be interesting to see what he would even start spending the political capital on first. He would need some wins going into midterms that even the Red state Dem senators could sell.

  14. #9599
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    If Sanders is the nominee, I wonder what's best for the Republican party.

    If Sanders loses, which I suspect is likelier with him than with the others, Republicans will probably keep the Senate and make gains in the judiciary. Maybe they'll even take back the House. But four more years of Trump, including a likely asskicking in the 2022 midterms, will have downsides for the party. It's possible Democrats will take the message that it's important to moderate, which will make them likelier to win in 2024 when someone I like more than Trump is going to be on the Republican ticket. It's also possible that they'll take a different message (a Sanders loss is due to him being an old white guy; they need someone younger and/ or more diverse) and back someone equally unelectable next time (AOC will be 35.)

    If Sanders wins, which is possible, I don't think he'll do very well in the White House, given his need to get Congress on board and lack of insight into the use of executive power/ the administrative state, as well as the likely problems with his agenda, in terms of popularity and results. That will be good for Republicans in the off-year elections, and there will then be an almost certain open election in 2024, where a Republican is more likely to be nominated and to win. It is entirely possible that the former mayor will be able to handle the basics pretty well, and be more popular/ effective than I expect, increasing the chances of Democrats winning the White House for three terms (incumbents do have an edge, which could be helpful for Sanders' successor who will be running to give the party a third term in the White House, a historically dicey proposition) during which the long-awaited demographic shift could occur that strengthens the party.

    This is presumably different from how most of you guys see the political considerations.
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  15. #9600
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Batson View Post
    Warren continues her front runner status with a strong 4th place showing
    Hahahaha, thanks this brought a smile to my face.
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