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  1. #11671
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    I haven't the foggiest idea where your going with that Obama comment. The first African American president? He won two elections and is a very popular politician.

    Clinton was a two termer, as well. Do you think Clinton wasn't popular during that time period? He was a rock star.

    Still, you continue to downplay these wins as credible achievements while boosting someone who couldn't manage to overcome the person who lost to Donald Trump.

    It's not about turning a "loss" into a "win," it's about establishing context which you refuse to hold leftists politicians to the same standard. But that would require giving the "establishment" credit for anything. No, they're loses - who cares about the GOP having to do incredibly outrageous things to win to beat them and the fact they have hundreds of compatriots who get elected all across the country, nationally and state wide.
    On former President Obama...

    You're almost there. Is there going to be a second "First" African-American President? If not, you've got to slap the blinders on not to see why his being elected was not just "Business As Usual..."

    As for Clinton? The second term is a non-issue. Without Perot in play to throw a wrench in the works? Clinton most likely never wins that election. The Democrats after not named "Obama" all make that much clear.

  2. #11672
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    On the one hand? That could wind up happening.

    On the other hand? Do any of his potential successors(AOC/Omar) feel like that?

    I'm willing to just live and let live on that folks have to go with what they feel, but I'm not so sure that this one winds up playing out that way. Just feels like we might be in the spot where things could break with what has happened historically.
    It could. I'm just saying why I view the movement skeptically. As for AOC and Omar, I'll reevaluate their role and when they get reelected. I'm not in their constituent base so I'm waiting to see if they can entrench themselves in the party enough to be a continuing force.
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  3. #11673
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KOSLOX View Post
    It could. I'm just saying why I view the movement skeptically. As for AOC and Omar, I'll reevaluate their role and when they get reelected. I'm not in their constituent base so I'm waiting to see if they can entrench themselves in the party enough to be a continuing force.
    Sure.

    There's a case for that it all just goes nose over tail after Sanders. I'd hope not, but it's a reasonable possibility.

  4. #11674
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KOSLOX View Post
    It could. I'm just saying why I view the movement skeptically. As for AOC and Omar, I'll reevaluate their role and when they get reelected. I'm not in their constituent base so I'm waiting to see if they can entrench themselves in the party enough to be a continuing force.
    Well the way for progressives to gain more traction in the party is basically to be as disruptive and insistent as possible. If we were to quietly toe the line and wait our turn we’d never get anyone to listen to us.

  5. #11675
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Question from the white british guy.

    Why IS the Black community behind Biden besides (as mentioned earlier) "I worked with Obama and hot sauce" cause Warren was "Medicare and lets deal with Billionaires" Bernie was "Lets socialist this up" what Bidens thing ? Cause the only thing that I can clearly remember is him acting like Trumpublicans are an oddity and not a clear representation of the party
    For all his faults he not only ran with but stood by and defended the first Black President from an onslaught of vicious, racist, and targeted attacks for eight years.

    He's not a perfect ally, and has done some really shitty things policy wise, but I view that as a character strength.

    Additionally he's familiar which people in general, but especially older people, tend to favor.

    And finally basically what I said above, there is a long history of "Movements" abandoning black people after their primary goal is met, so what difference does it make if we stick with the familiar or go with an ethereal sense "greater good" that might not make room for us anyway.

    Obviously that's not a universal declaration to answer "why do black people?..." but for my specific atomized peer group those were a lot of the driving factors we kicked around.
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  6. #11676
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Well the way for progressives to gain more traction in the party is basically to be as disruptive and insistent as possible. If we were to quietly toe the line and wait our turn we’d never get anyone to listen to us.
    We've historically been shot either way.
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  7. #11677
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    A lot of times in politics people tend to confuse political incorrectness with authenticity, but I think the Trump era proved that it’s perfectly possible to be both a creep and a liar. Sure, Biden deserves credit for sticking by Obama when he could have gone rogue and appealed to anti-Obama elements in the party to form a coalition and seize the top spot for himself, but that is a hell of a low bar to set.

  8. #11678
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Well the way for progressives to gain more traction in the party is basically to be as disruptive and insistent as possible. If we were to quietly toe the line and wait our turn we’d never get anyone to listen to us.
    Let me suggest another course: get people to show the hell up at the ballot box.

    You gain power by demonstrating power. What you advocate here is mostly selective noise. You yell what you think is true because you want it to be true, rather than making it true. This is the most tired element of progressivism. It's a kind of entitlement really - "Look at me over here yelling and waving my arms! Do what I want!" The reasonable person responds with....well, can we count on you to vote if we embrace your platforms? If a candidate runs you like, will you join us? Progressive: "Hell yeah! Look at all our small donations to that candidate and our rabid internet following!" Election happens - you assholes stay home. Then you make more noise, excuses, and conspiracies.

    So you want traction? Make traction by getting more of your brethren involved. You don't have to be quiet, but understand why you get sat in the corner when all you do is create noise and nothing substantive.

  9. #11679
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Question from the white british guy.

    Why IS the Black community behind Biden besides (as mentioned earlier) "I worked with Obama and hot sauce" cause Warren was "Medicare and lets deal with Billionaires" Bernie was "Lets socialist this up" what Bidens thing ? Cause the only thing that I can clearly remember is him acting like Trumpublicans are an oddity and not a clear representation of the party
    I spent quite a few years working with black kids and their families in Chicago. From that limited experience, I'd say black voters need to build trust and rapport with their leaders. Trust is earned and hard to shake if it feels authentic. Biden is an authentic dude, flaws or not. He's worked with black leaders for decades, including the crime bill. He stood on the stage and embraced and praised Barrack Obama. Politics is very pragmatic for many established black voters and Biden represents a trusted ally in that process. Maybe my experiences aren't telling and some of our other posters who are black voters can speak to that and tell me where I'm off. But from building relationships with people in that community, that was my take away.

    A revolution starter? That brings uncertainty and they have no reason to trust Bernie Sanders directly. I would say that's true for a lot of moderate/centrist/pragmatic people.

  10. #11680
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    Let me suggest another course: get people to show the hell up at the ballot box.

    You gain power by demonstrating power. What you advocate here is mostly selective noise. You yell what you think is true because you want it to be true, rather than making it true. This is the most tired element of progressivism. It's a kind of entitlement really - "Look at me over here yelling and waving my arms! Do what I want!" The reasonable person responds with....well, can we count on you to vote if we embrace your platforms? If a candidate runs you like, will you join us? Progressive: "Hell yeah! Look at all our small donations to that candidate and our rabid internet following!" Election happens - you assholes stay home. Then you make more noise, excuses, and conspiracies.

    So you want traction? Make traction by getting more of your brethren involved. You don't have to be quiet, but understand why you get sat in the corner when all you do is create noise and nothing substantive.
    This has always been a sticking point I've had when people vote 3rd Party for president. You don't make substantive changes from the top down. When people talk about impressive grass roots campaigns, I always wonder why they aren't investing those efforts in their communities first to build a party base and build upwards.

    Sure that's slow and boring, but it how you build lasting apparatus.
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  11. #11681
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    I dare say Bernie has more boots on the ground getting the vote out than any candidate ever, but admittedly much of that falls on deaf ears. America is a rich country and even with all the inequality most people live comfortably enough that they’d rather just preserve the status quo. However, the problem with that kind of thinking is that the world IS changing whether we want it to or not, the disagreement is over how it will change. Asking nicely gets us turned away because people prefer the huckster who claims they can keep living the good life without upsetting the apple cart, should we just stand aside even though we KNOW those promises are lies?

  12. #11682
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    I dare say Bernie has more boots on the ground getting the vote out than any candidate ever, but admittedly much of that falls on deaf ears. America is a rich country and even with all the inequality most people live comfortably enough that they’d rather just preserve the status quo. However, the problem with that kind of thinking is that the world IS changing whether we want it to or not, the disagreement is over how it will change. Asking nicely gets us turned away because people prefer the huckster who claims they can keep living the good life without upsetting the apple cart, should we just stand aside even though we KNOW those promises are lies?
    I'm so over this "ask nicely" excuse-making and whining from progressives. Nowhere do I hear people demanding you be polite.

    I hear people demanding you be real. You and thirty are notorious in this thread for launching so many caveats and "If....then" clauses about what will get progressives to vote.....so let me not politely tell you: knock that crap off. You want to be taken seriously? Be serious. It's great that Bernie has boots on the ground, but until you change what the demographics of the VOTING populace looks like, there is zero reason to take you seriously. Why would the DNC get behind a candidate who can't even turn out the very people he says he can turn out? Why would they trust a segment of their base they can't rely on?

    Your noise is meaningless without the real influence and participation required to make it matter. How polite you are about your noise is irrelevant because your movements lack of actual movement has made it irrelevant.

  13. #11683
    Mighty Member TheDarman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Yeah, I get that. "Old school" progressives tended to be closet racists at heart who cared more about their grand plans to engineer some utopian society, a vision that didn't really include minorities. However, I don't think that's what Bernie is.
    And it rests on Bernie to prove that. Unfortunately, he has largely shown a lack of disinterest in coming up with plans and proposals that will help black folks on top of his economic agenda, something you’ve even admitted. That is very early-LBJ of him (remember the a Great Society programs? Now he’s better known for social justice—only because he was brought there kicking and screaming though). Think what had to happen for LBJ to prioritize voting rights and civil rights. Black people had to march and remain calm when dogs were sicked on them and fire hoses were turned on them and they were beaten and thrown in jail. One of these events was Bloody Sunday, which Sanders dipped out of the commemoration of. In this campaign (not going back a quarter century, talking about today), he hasn’t been exceptional at making that outreach happen.
    With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility

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  14. #11684
    Astonishing Member Lord Falcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    There are other female minority candidates that would not be have the obvious issues that Harris does. Personally, she is right around "Dead Last..." on the list of women I would consider.

    You want a good VP attacker? That's the priority? You call Lori Lightfoot. Better at the strengths. None of the weaknesses.
    Oooh, interesting. I remember this being a blip on my radar. And she didn't have deep political ties to Chicago before becoming mayor, which would make me wary due to the nature of Chicago's politics.

    I don't know enough about Lightfoot yet to be sure about an opinion, but she seems like an amazing pick. Black, gay, speaks with conviction, mayor of a large city, oversaw a drop in crime, isn't all buddy buddy with police either. I like her.

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    While I don't want to mistake what you mean here, I see "Look, Progressives Don't Tell The Truth..."

    Take card check. Politely, do you have a counter to that article's take on card check? That members of a union here asked the union to pull a Biden endorsement based on his past treatment of unions?

    https://inthesetimes.com/uploads/IBE...Leadership.pdf

    As for that he's not "Bought"?

    Explain going to bat for credit card companies while his son was getting a check from them. In detail, explain where he has an out.

    That's what it would take for me to even consider the idea.

    Sure, he's not the worst of that. Doesn't change what he is and has done.
    Do you understand the concept of implicit bias? Like, I put Rachel Maddow up there as an obvious counterpoint to the very suspicion you just voiced, so my first sentence is a real question. Not sarcasm.

    One can be progressive or moderate or conservative in one's thinking, and that's fine. But that person's word carries more weight when they check themselves to make sure their own biases aren't making them cherry pick facts, lie, or lose sight of the big picture. And a person's opinion becomes worth very little to me if they're only ever willing to look for facts to feed their own biases.

    Biden's from Delaware, which is a notorious haven for corporations to say they're legally headquartered in even if it's just a mailbox. To the extent that that he listens to credit card companies, he's remarkably non-corrupt about it regarding the types of credit reform he fought for.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...5-biden-warren

    I would agree that there is no better candidate than Warren when it comes to tackling financial institutions. And I agree that Biden was blind to the downsides of how all the extra paperwork could raise costs and be intimidating for people filing for Chapter 7. And the student loan debts provisions were...just bad. The bill also did have upsides, such as child support and lowering interest rates for borrowers.

    As for Hunter Biden, again, they're in Delaware. Hunter isn't exactly known for having great taste in the private enterprises he works for.

    Biden spent decades in Washington and remained not-rich until after the Obama administration, where he made millions of book royalties.

  15. #11685
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Yeah but constantly touting the support for Biden among black folks as if it's some kind of absolute firewall that progressives can never penetrate is kind of painting us as these European style populists who are laser focused on the "native" working class and are out to screw as many minorities and immigrants as possible in the name of increasing welfare benefits for themselves, and that's just totally unfair. The main reason that black people support moderates is, as many have freely admitted, all the fearmongering about electability is hitting home hard. No matter how free thinking or independently minded black voters may be, constantly hearing horror stories about how we'll get another four years of Trump if we don't nominate the most bland and inoffensive candidate, which Joe Biden really isn't even but whatever, ends up being some brain worm that occupies your mindspace no matter how hard you try to block it out.

    Forget Bernie and this entire election for a second, the big reason why the Democratic party's relationship with black voters always sticks in my craw is because, for all the support that black folks have given white moderate politicians, it almost NEVER gets reciprocated in any meaningful fashion. Had Hillary Clinton won in 2016, the black vote would have been decisive, because whites voted overwhelmingly for Trump and the Hispanic/Asian/Other vote was inexplicably a lot closer than it really should have been, but black voters held firm as a bloc. However, does anyone really believe that helping the black community was ever anywhere near the top of the list of her policy priorities? Black people generally do poorly in this country when they sit back and wait for incremental change to do its thing, I don't know why anyone thinks it is in their best interest to support white politicians that advocate for exactly that.
    This has actually been a point of discussion the black community for several years now. With some folks shrugging it off, "This is whaat we're stuck with," some advocating starting a new party, and a few going to the Republicans.
    Last edited by ed2962; 03-06-2020 at 07:53 AM.

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