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  1. #14461
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Then it says a lot about Sanders that Biden was able to defeat him easily both in votes and in the most recent debate.

    You can't have it both ways -- if Biden is a "bad" candidate then that only accentuates the fact that Sanders is an even worse candidate to most voters.

    If Biden is as "mentally deficient" as you claim then that just makes Sanders look even worse for losing to him -- consistently.
    Says alot about Establishment entrenchment more than Sanders...
    Says a lot about Voters who fall for Centrist and Media lies and Establishment entrenchment...
    Says a lot about FEAR being more of a motivator than Hope, NOBODY except Centrists and people who want NOTHING to FUNDAMENTALLY change, is excited for Biden, no one, Except Establishment entrenchment.

    You really misread politics if you think this is only and always about Sanders.

    The Country as a whole, from left to right, and all in between, are for PROGRESSIVE policies. But Establishment on both sides entrench around each other to make sure they remain in power.
    YOU, think it's all about Sanders, Progressives worldwide saw what they did to Corbyn and are doing to Sanders, it's the literal same playbook. It's very hard for people who live a certain way to change.

    You truly think the media who lives and breathes on conflict wont try to slander Biden nor Trump depending who the flavor of the week is?
    Hell, right now they think Cuomo is their best sht to win the white house. You think there aren't talks about Bidens decline and Cuomo being an alternative, because of "OPTICS".

    Your view of politics seems to be a lot more narrower than mines.
    You think People nationwide would have given Biden the props while Bernies policies are winning if it wasn't for Trump instead of Joe blow Republican?
    You think Jessica Cisneros would have gotten as far as she did if the media had actually paid attention? She still lost once they saw her as a threat.

    Do you HONESTLY think AOC would be AOC right now if the Media outside of humanist Report, TYT, and Secular Talk had noticed her and taken her seriously?

    The people you want in power hate change. Republicans and Democrats. Trump is acceptable to the GOP because he talks like an ass to their idiot base, but gives the rich what they want.
    If he didn't do you think Trump would still be where he is right now? YES, because the GOP base was thirsty for change, and unlike the Democratic side would not be bullied by the establishment talking shit about Trump.

    There's nothing I can say to you to get yuo to deeply understand politics about a surface level if you don't want to. but a lot of posters here see Bernie sucks, and Biden reeks, but I'll take Biden, because Trump bad sad.

    Politics is really so much more than that.

    However the GOP base may be idiots, but it makes them unruly and they switch who they support on a dime and will not be cowed by the elite, even though the elites shit on them all the time.
    The Progressives however are generally decent people and will be bullied into lesser of two evils, because we see far and long term.

    But then you get an asshole like me, who is willing to buck the party, take the blows, because I can't be shamed into supporting shitty candidates.
    People are sick of lesser evils, even if Centrists aren't.

  2. #14462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazirai View Post
    Says alot about Establishment entrenchment more than Sanders.t.
    The people you are arguing with are not "the Establishment" -- we are just individuals who have a different political opinion than you do.

    And you can argue and fight with people all you want but that won't win Sanders any votes and it won't make people agree with your polical views.

    It's a losing strategy and it's irresponsible for you to try to force others in a democratic society to either agree with you or be deemed the enemy.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 03-26-2020 at 12:45 AM.

  3. #14463
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I won't say either candidate is "bad" .... but they both have flaws which potentially make it hard to beat Trump if the coronavirus can't stop him. Do you want a candidate which potentially which doesn't know what day of the week it is or what office he's running for, or do you want one which is a socialist? That's the decision the democrats were stuck with this year.
    Exactly. They see the world in small terms. My guy is electable even if he sucks, but you're guy has better plans and even when my wife admits it. She still wants you to vote for me, even though I'm uninspiring.

    His wife is literally like, yeah I know he's not what you want, or need, but he can beat Trump. But can he though?


  4. #14464
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    The people you are arguing with are not "the Establishment" -- we just have a different political opinion than you do.

    And you can argue and fight with people all you want but that won't win Sanders any votes and it won't make people agree with your polical views.

    It's a losing strategy and it's irresponsible for you to try to force others to either agree with you or be deemed the enemy.
    You're not my enemy, I just have decided to stop voting for lesser evils because the Establishment and Centrists expect me too.

    I won't be bullied into things Democrats got themselves into to please their donors, the media, and conservatives.

    They ALWAYS expect the black vote and do nothing for us. They expect the Progressive vote, then do nothing for us, they expect women's votes and BARELY do anything for the people who vote for them the most.
    When the fall returns come, and they don' suit the Establishment, or Democrats lose, we're gonna get blamed either way.

  5. #14465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazirai View Post
    You're not my enemy, I just have decided to stop voting for lesser evils because the Establishment and Centrists expect me too.

    I won't be bullied into things Democrats got themselves into to please their donors, the media, and conservatives.
    No one is bullying you into anything -- mainly you're here just arguing with people, attacking Biden, and posting Sanders propaganda.

  6. #14466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazirai View Post
    Says alot about Establishment entrenchment more than Sanders...
    Says a lot about Voters who fall for Centrist and Media lies and Establishment entrenchment...
    Says a lot about FEAR being more of a motivator than Hope, NOBODY except Centrists and people who want NOTHING to FUNDAMENTALLY change, is excited for Biden, no one, Except Establishment entrenchment.
    Fear is a great motivator and the left employs it just as much as the right. Sanders himself does this when he attacks the "establishment." This is why organisation is helpful, rather than defining yourself as the perennial outsider like Sanders does. He could have made inroads and won the election, instead he didn't learn what he should have from '16 and thought he was entitled to the nomination. That's on Sanders.

    You really misread politics if you think this is only and always about Sanders.
    He's just the current head of the movement, that's why people take it personally when he gets called out.

    The Country as a whole, from left to right, and all in between, are for PROGRESSIVE policies. But Establishment on both sides entrench around each other to make sure they remain in power.
    YOU, think it's all about Sanders, Progressives worldwide saw what they did to Corbyn and are doing to Sanders, it's the literal same playbook. It's very hard for people who live a certain way to change.
    It is when Sanders flubs that message to the public because he's only interested in appealing to the fringe. Progressive policies are popular, leftist politicians aren't. The left won't go anywhere if their leaders are people like Corbyn and Sanders.

    You truly think the media who lives and breathes on conflict wont try to slander Biden nor Trump depending who the flavor of the week is?
    Hell, right now they think Cuomo is their best sht to win the white house. You think there aren't talks about Bidens decline and Cuomo being an alternative, because of "OPTICS".
    Sure, and Sanders is worse with the media than Biden is. He spoon feeds them Red Scare quotes and is surprised when they use it against him.

    Your view of politics seems to be a lot more narrower than mines.
    You think People nationwide would have given Biden the props while Bernies policies are winning if it wasn't for Trump instead of Joe blow Republican?
    You think Jessica Cisneros would have gotten as far as she did if the media had actually paid attention? She still lost once they saw her as a threat.
    I don't know who that is. And yeah, they would - this election was Biden's too lose long before he entered the race. That's how well liked he was.

    Do you HONESTLY think AOC would be AOC right now if the Media outside of humanist Report, TYT, and Secular Talk had noticed her and taken her seriously?
    AOC is where she is right now due to luck having the laziest politician to run against and worked hard to fill a niche he missed then she was constantly given the spotlight from Fox news and the right like she's the new Hillary Clinton - which she skilfully managed to being a voice on the left that was heard around the world. However, she isn't tested politically outside her safe blue district and she's a rookie politician. TYT didn't "notice" her, they recruited her to run. None of those people made her famous, the mainstream media networks did. They're obscure media channels.

    The people you want in power hate change. Republicans and Democrats. Trump is acceptable to the GOP because he talks like an ass to their idiot base, but gives the rich what they want.
    If he didn't do you think Trump would still be where he is right now? YES, because the GOP base was thirsty for change, and unlike the Democratic side would not be bullied by the establishment talking shit about Trump.
    Trump got where he is with brute force, marketing something the regular GOP wasn't giving their base and winner take all primaries. It's not wise to take your ideas from the GOP without huge caveats. We don't need a left GOP, one's bad enough.

    There's nothing I can say to you to get yuo to deeply understand politics about a surface level if you don't want to. but a lot of posters here see Bernie sucks, and Biden reeks, but I'll take Biden, because Trump bad sad.

    Politics is really so much more than that.
    Aja_Christopher understands politics better than you do by a wide margin.

    However the GOP base may be idiots, but it makes them unruly and they switch who they support on a dime and will not be cowed by the elite, even though the elites shit on them all the time.
    The Progressives however are generally decent people and will be bullied into lesser of two evils, because we see far and long term.
    You don't speak for all progressives, and the GOP base aren't that malleable that's the "independents". Sanders is an elite, as are many of the leftist You Tube pundits you follow. Decent people don't cover for sexist bullies on the internet, or hen they do things like make death threats because their candidate lost an election. Normally I wouldn't have to separate those "decent people" from regular Sanders supporters but you've shown you consider them "decent people." Long term you've failed twice running for president, so I'm skeptical about that comment.


    But then you get an asshole like me, who is willing to buck the party, take the blows, because I can't be shamed into supporting shitty candidates.
    People are sick of lesser evils, even if Centrists aren't.
    We've seen how far rage and spite get the left in politics, organisation crushes that tactic to dust. If you had the numbers for those people we'd be talking about Sanders being he nominee, not Biden. The people have spoken and they don't prefer Sanders.

  7. #14467
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazirai View Post
    Says alot about Establishment entrenchment more than Sanders...
    Says a lot about Voters who fall for Centrist and Media lies and Establishment entrenchment...
    Says a lot about FEAR being more of a motivator than Hope, NOBODY except Centrists and people who want NOTHING to FUNDAMENTALLY change, is excited for Biden, no one, Except Establishment entrenchment.

    You really misread politics if you think this is only and always about Sanders.

    The Country as a whole, from left to right, and all in between, are for PROGRESSIVE policies. But Establishment on both sides entrench around each other to make sure they remain in power.
    YOU, think it's all about Sanders, Progressives worldwide saw what they did to Corbyn and are doing to Sanders, it's the literal same playbook. It's very hard for people who live a certain way to change.
    .
    ....except as an actual Brit with feet on the ground I can tell you (as I did before) Corbyn fucked up in his own. Hell his main "enemies" were the Conservative party, not the smattering of neo-blairites who (like it or lump it) have been the most successful left wing party in Britain and (Iraq war aside) have a fairly decent record.

    But sure "centrists"

  8. #14468
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    ....except as an actual Brit with feet on the ground I can tell you (as I did before) Corbyn fucked up in his own. Hell his main "enemies" were the Conservative party, not the smattering of neo-blairites who (like it or lump it) have been the most successful left wing party in Britain and (Iraq war aside) have a fairly decent record.

    But sure "centrists"
    Tony Blairís record would be so differently regarded if only heíd done a ďWilsonĒ and refused to get involved in a patently pointless war. But in general terms on foreign policy he did seem subservient to US interests...Iraq wasnít unusual in that, just the most damaging example.

    I agree with you that Corbyn did a lot of stuff to damage himself. I think the fact that he did relatively well in his first election campaign suggests itís possible for a youngish dynamic leader to actually win on a fairly left wing platform.

    Unfortunately his performance has made that prospect more unlikely. (I find it telling that Sir Keir...whose wishy washy Brexit policy has done so much to damage the party is probably favourite to take over as leader.)

  9. #14469
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarman View Post
    To be honest, I donít get where this fear comes from. Biden has excelled in one-on-one debates, be it with Sanders, Ryan, and Palin. To assume that Trump is any smarter or temperamentally better seems inaccurate to me, especially since Biden has more of a likability about him than Trump does. He can cite his friendship with McCain to show that even Republicans like him and then demonstrate how Trump treated a POW who served his country with distinction.

    Plus, weíve seen how little debates are worth in elections given Clinton won every one of them and still lost the election.
    Iíve said this before but Biden gets very overrated in debates because he worked Palin who Iím pretty sure most competent people could embarrass in a debate.

  10. #14470
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarman View Post
    I think both of these drawbacks are insanely overplayed/exaggerated. Biden is fairly quick to correct his errors, which isnít consistent with those suffering from even Mild Cognitive Impairment. Sanders is also not a ďsocialistĒ in the Venezuelan or Cuban sense. He is a democratic socialist in the vein of a left of center politician in the Netherlands. One of the fascinating things that I discussed with my Dutch friend during my Fund for American Studies time in Washington DC was about where I would fall on his countryís political spectrum. He said I would be pretty center-right, especially given my moderation on guns (I say treat them like cars). It was truly eye-opening for him to tell me that directly. And I donít see many people pointing to the Netherlands as a problematic state.
    Most Americans honestly donít understand how right wing this country is compared to the rest of the West. Guns are a big one just because itís not uncommon for most of our peer countries to have either outright gun bans or just such restrictive laws that it wouldnít get past the 2nd Amendment.

    Look at a country like the UK which is led by BORIS JOHNSON. Look at what they are doing for their people in this crisis and look at what we are doing. They are about to provide 80% pay to their workers who arenít working during this crisis. We are about to provide a one time 1200 check and add some money to unemployment and the bulk of this is going to big business and thatís considered a win.

    Americaís a very big and different country and parts of it are almost fringe right wing to the point where it deeply drags the national average.

    By comparison to your statement, nearly all my European friends consider Bernie Sanders merely center left. But here heís like the far fringe left that people find unrealistic.

  11. #14471
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Tony Blair’s record would be so differently regarded if only he’d done a “Wilson” and refused to get involved in a patently pointless war. But in general terms on foreign policy he did seem subservient to US interests...Iraq wasn’t unusual in that, just the most damaging example.

    I agree with you that Corbyn did a lot of stuff to damage himself. I think the fact that he did relatively well in his first election campaign suggests it’s possible for a youngish dynamic leader to actually win on a fairly left wing platform.

    Unfortunately his performance has made that prospect more unlikely. (I find it telling that Sir Keir...whose wishy washy Brexit policy has done so much to damage the party is probably favourite to take over as leader.)
    Afaik it was looking more and more like Stamer

  12. #14472
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Most Americans honestly don’t understand how right wing this country is compared to the rest of the West. Guns are a big one just because it’s not uncommon for most of our peer countries to have either outright gun bans or just such restrictive laws that it wouldn’t get past the 2nd Amendment.

    Look at a country like the UK which is led by BORIS JOHNSON. Look at what they are doing for their people in this crisis and look at what we are doing. They are about to provide 80% pay to their workers who aren’t working during this crisis. We are about to provide a one time 1200 check and add some money to unemployment and the bulk of this is going to big business and that’s considered a win.

    America’s a very big and different country and parts of it are almost fringe right wing to the point where it deeply drags the national average.

    By comparison to your statement, nearly all my European friends consider Bernie Sanders merely center left. But here he’s like the far fringe left that people find unrealistic.
    Pretty much. Americas left wing is most other nations right. Thats how weird your overton window is.

  13. #14473
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    To be honest in a debate with Trump Biden will look very bad. Trump will eat him alive.
    They said Sanders would do that in the last debate. I guess you didn't watch.

  14. #14474
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    It has nothing to do with what certain politically biased individuals "want" -- it's about who won the primaries and the last debate.

    People keep pushing this narrative that Biden "doesn't know what day of the week it is" which is both slanderous and blatantly biased.

    I could just as easily point out that Sanders looks like a slovenly old homeless man who finally decided to buy a suit and run for office.

    It would be biased but it's true -- to me he looks and often acts like a slovenly angry old homeless man who decided to buy a suit and run for office.

    Even so, if he wins the most votes/debates then he's who the people want and it's self-defeating to keep attacking him based on personal bias.

    Biden does know what day of the week it is and what office he's running for -- namely the one Americans nominated him for over Sanders.

    Sanders supporters real problem isn't with Biden because they will attack any candidate who opposes Sanders with similar lies and vitriol.

    It's with the American voter who doesn't share their political views or buy their propaganda, which is why they are always arguing with everyone.
    Is it slanderous or biased to question whether or not he knows the day of the week or the office he's running for if he very publicaly says it's the wrong day of the week and the wrong office?

    I do agree that Sanders supporters (and Trump supporters) would attack any candidate who oppoeses their side in an election... that's how elections work. That said, Biden is giving them this ammuntion. If Trump made the exact same mistakes , we'd get the exact same response from Bidens side and pretty much everyone else ... if you make those type of mistakes, it's completely fair game. The point of Biden doing interniews and making pubic appearances is to sell himself to the public... but that works both ways. And I think it's fair to say he's not doing a terribly good job. Obviusly that's subjective though.

    All that said,yes... the democrats did nominate him over Sanders. So ready or not, this is what the democrats feel is their best shot at beating Trump. But I think there's reason to be worried here... we'll see.

  15. #14475
    Mighty Member SquirrelMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarman View Post
    Okay...but do you know how many candidates in modern history have come back from a 300+ non-super-delegate delegate disadvantage? There arenít any and there are no winner take all states. Sanders has to win virtually every other state by a wider margin than he won his home state. Do you really think he can do that?
    Tarizai's job here is not to help Sanders win. Nobody can do that.

    His job is to damage Biden and the Democratic Party.

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