All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[PwrdOn]

I never said that or implied that.

So what was that whole bit about organizing overseas Chinese to ship medical supplies then? You don't think that maybe people just wanted to send stuff to their relatives because they were worried about them?

[sammy_hansen]

So what was that whole bit about organizing overseas Chinese to ship medical supplies then? You don't think that maybe people just wanted to send stuff to their relatives because they were worried about them?

I have no doubt that some of them did. But we are talking about the state here, not individual citizens or families. China’s government made sure its connected citizens were able to export tonnes of medical supplies back to China. I’m not talking about the mums and dads or aunts and uncles who send some sanitizer and a few face masks. I’m talking about well-connected communist party people who organized tonnes of this stuff.

When they weren’t telling the world how serious this problem was.

I’d have the same issue with the Soviet Union in Chernobyl 1986. Or the US government in Iraq in the middle of 2004. China made this worse than it needed to be. And I think people should be allowed to say that.

[Celgress]

Here is an interesting video for anyone who wants to learn what Canada is like - Myth vs Reality

[TheDarman]

That practically all of the criticism that Western nations level at the rest of the world is tinged with barely concealed racism isn't just an unfortunate circumstance, it actually damages the credibility of the message and makes what would otherwise be a receptive audience tune you out. A lot of the criticism of China has the same kind of tone as when white people start talking about Mexican drug lords or Muslim terrorists, yeah of course those are all serious issues that people would rather be rid of, but when "well-meaning" white folks start casting judgment from on high, it actually makes people less likely to believe what you're saying and more inclined to stay loyal to organizations that they'd otherwise hate. In the early stages of the pandemic in China there were unprecedented levels of criticism of the government's failures to contain the outbreak, so much so that the vaunted Chinese censorship apparatus wasn't able to contain it. However, these days you will rarely hear anything but praise for how the government handled the crisis, not because they just muffled all opposition, but because when they saw that the international response was just to repeat old canards about the barbarity of Chinese culture it made them reconsider whether their own dissent was just contributing to foreign-instigated instability. If you think about just how strongly Americans reacted to Russian interference in the 2016 election, just imagine how every other country in the world must feel having to deal with American interference in all of their affairs going back as far as anyone can remember.

I don’t think it makes much sense to insist that any criticism of any particular country, an authoritarian regime, or crime problems is inherently racist if a white person makes the point. This might work if we lived in a vacuum with only white people here and Asian folks there, but that isn’t how it works. And we are usually the better for that. But we have to recognize that folks are impacted by what China did and didn’t do with their response. Just the same as how families here are indeed affected by the cartels. I don’t think anyone here is implying that it is the citizens’ fault. Heck, in the case of the cartels, it is hardly even the government’s fault.

We have to be able to have nuanced arguments about government figures around the world, though. We do it with our politicians. Nothing is black and white, and I know some idiots may look at the Biden ad and see it that way, validating their racism, but we should be better than that. We should elevate our common discourse.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Sure, America isn't all just white people, I am American as well after all, but as it happens nearly all of the wealth and power remains in the hands of whites, so when people blame America for going around murdering civilians all over the globe, they aren't really picturing Barack Obama.

Except we're not talking about a broad view the world looks at America, we're discussing how you phrased America as though it was Scandinavia. This ignores the fact that not everyone was in agreement with what Bush did, and stipulates that American = Republican.

And far be it for me to silence you from trying to criticize foreign governments, just don't act so surprised when it falls on deaf ears.

Not "foreign governments," dictatorships. We're not talking about Canada here. All countries should be criticised, yet you don't seem interested in raking them over the coals the they do something bad. Like helping Trump. Is the world shaped like you wanted to be in after 2016? It isn't for me.

What's curious is that Russia is a right wing dictatorship, not Communist like China is, so why defend them?

[shooshoomanjoe]

Israelis protesting Netanayu in the age of COVID-19.



trump supporters protesting lock downs in the age of COVID-19



Lord protect us from your followers.

[PwrdOn]

I have no doubt that some of them did. But we are talking about the state here, not individual citizens or families. China’s government made sure its connected citizens were able to export tonnes of medical supplies back to China. I’m not talking about the mums and dads or aunts and uncles who send some sanitizer and a few face masks. I’m talking about well-connected communist party people who organized tonnes of this stuff.

When they weren’t telling the world how serious this problem was.

I’d have the same issue with the Soviet Union in Chernobyl 1986. Or the US government in Iraq in the middle of 2004. China made this worse than it needed to be. And I think people should be allowed to say that.

I mean, all through January and February the virus had yet to spread outside of China significantly and it was definitely being covered in the news, only that nearly all of the articles centered around how awful and authoritarian it was for the Chinese government to be enforcing these harsh quarantine measures and that this was a sign of how corrupt and dystopian their society was. The rest of the world had ample time to prepare and simply chose not to, because we deluded ourselves into thinking that the virus was entirely the fault of the Chinese government's authoritarian policies and that it would never be a problem in an open, democratic society. And let's be honest here, all this talk that China is covering up their death toll has absolutely nothing to do with them somehow misleading us about the severity of the outbreak, and everything to do with this sick geopolitical contest of counting bodies. So yeah, you can say that China made the problem worse than it had to be, but given that the general political consensus in your country is already to blame the Chinese for anything and everything that goes wrong, I'm not quite sure if I'm inclined to take what you have to say seriously.

I don’t think it makes much sense to insist that any criticism of any particular country, an authoritarian regime, or crime problems is inherently racist if a white person makes the point. This might work if we lived in a vacuum with only white people here and Asian folks there, but that isn’t how it works. And we are usually the better for that. But we have to recognize that folks are impacted by what China did and didn’t do with their response. Just the same as how families here are indeed affected by the cartels. I don’t think anyone here is implying that it is the citizens’ fault. Heck, in the case of the cartels, it is hardly even the government’s fault.

We have to be able to have nuanced arguments about government figures around the world, though. We do it with our politicians. Nothing is black and white, and I know some idiots may look at the Biden ad and see it that way, validating their racism, but we should be better than that. We should elevate our common discourse.

We don't have nuanced arguments about governments around the world though, we just constantly hammer home the point that any country that hasn't copied the Western liberal democratic model MUST be a menace that needs to be dealt with, while completely ignoring that many of the governments we find to be most oppressive enjoy far more popular support at home than ours does and have managed to solve particularly thorny issues that we find completely intractable, even in the face of overwhelming American economic and military pressure. For example, it should be a miracle that Cuba has doctors and hospitals at all, given the squeeze that the embargo has put on them for decades, yet their health system is arguably better than ours despite having a tiny fraction of the resources available. Or what about the contrast between communist Vietnam, which has yet to record a single death from the coronavirus and has been for years touted as a rising economic powerhouse, and their "democratic" neighbors in southeast Asia that are endlessly plagued by corruption, ethnic tension, crime, and economic stagnation? And of course democracy is worth striving for and civil liberties matter, but history has shown us time and time again that simply bending the knee to Western pressure does NOT get you any of those things, only even more corrupt and more dictatorial governments that simply sell out the country to foreign businesses and don't even pretend to act in the best interests of their people.

Except we're not talking about a broad view the world looks at America, we're discussing how you phrased America as though it was Scandinavia. This ignores the fact that not everyone was in agreement with what Bush did, and stipulates that American = Republican.

Not "foreign governments," dictatorships. We're not talking about Canada here. All countries should be criticised, yet you don't seem interested in raking them over the coals the they do something bad. Like helping Trump. Is the world shaped like you wanted to be in after 2016? It isn't for me.

What's curious is that Russia is a right wing dictatorship, not Communist like China is, so why defend them?

I distinctly remember the atmosphere post 9/11, nationalistic fervor was at an all time high and I didn't know of a single person who would come out and say that going to war was the wrong move or that Muslims deserve any kind of sympathy whatsoever. Sure, after the Iraq War turned into a quagmire all of the anti-war people came out of the woodwork and acted like they had been saying that it was a bad idea all along. As for Russia, you know you can hardly blame them for taking a hostile stance toward the US, they bought into all of our freedomizing propaganda after the fall of the USSR about how capitalism and democracy would bring peace, stability, and prosperity, and as a result they suffered through a horrific calamity that saw just about every part of their economy stripped and sold for parts for pennies on the dollar to enrich a corrupt oligarch class.

[sammy_hansen]

I mean, all through January and February the virus had yet to spread outside of China significantly and it was definitely being covered in the news, only that nearly all of the articles centered around how awful and authoritarian it was for the Chinese government to be enforcing these harsh quarantine measures and that this was a sign of how corrupt and dystopian their society was. The rest of the world had ample time to prepare and simply chose not to, because we deluded ourselves into thinking that the virus was entirely the fault of the Chinese government's authoritarian policies and that it would never be a problem in an open, democratic society. And let's be honest here, all this talk that China is covering up their death toll has absolutely nothing to do with them somehow misleading us about the severity of the outbreak, and everything to do with this sick geopolitical contest of counting bodies. So yeah, you can say that China made the problem worse than it had to be, but given that the general political consensus in your country is already to blame the Chinese for anything and everything that goes wrong, I'm not quite sure if I'm inclined to take what you have to say seriously.

Well, okay then. I’m think it’s really unfair to dismiss someone’s point of view because of what other people in their country say or do. If that were the case then people would dismiss anything any American says because some people wear hoods and burn crosses. It’s ridiculous. Why even converse with people if you won’t argue in good faith? You may as well just post statuses on Facebook.

Anyway, there are valid points there to consider. Why was the Western response so deficient and is this China blaming simply a matter of arse-covering? Very likely in the case of Trump and the USA. But what did China know and when did it know? These are questions are unlikely to be answered because of the nature of the communist dictatorship. Some people are comfortable with that. I’m not. And I don’t think the Wuhan whistleblower doctor who “disappeared” was either.

[PwrdOn]

Well, okay then. I’m think it’s really unfair to dismiss someone’s point of view because of what other people in their country say or do. If that were the case then people would dismiss anything any American says because some people wear hoods and burn crosses. It’s ridiculous. Why even converse with people if you won’t argue in good faith? You may as well just post statuses on Facebook.

Anyway, there are valid points there to consider. Why was the Western response so deficient and is this China blaming simply a matter of arse-covering? Very likely in the case of Trump and the USA. But what did China know and when did it know? These are questions are unlikely to be answered because of the nature of the communist dictatorship. Some people are comfortable with that. I’m not. And I don’t think the Wuhan whistleblower doctor who “disappeared” was either.

I mean all of that information is just a quick google away, the outbreak was covered pretty extensively in the media throughout January and February and there was plenty of information getting out, so there's no need to "just ask questions" when most of the answers are publicly available. And it's pretty obvious why the West's response was so deficient, because everyone here assumed that the virus was entirely the fault of the Chinese government and that it couldn't possibly spread over here.

And as far as dismissing points of view, credibility isn't something you're entitled to, it has to be earned, and if you are just regurgitating the same talking points that avowed racists are spewing right now, you shouldn't be surprised if you get pushback.

[sammy_hansen]

I mean all of that information is just a quick google away, the outbreak was covered pretty extensively in the media throughout January and February and there was plenty of information getting out, so there's no need to "just ask questions" when most of the answers are publicly available. And it's pretty obvious why the West's response was so deficient, because everyone here assumed that the virus was entirely the fault of the Chinese government and that it couldn't possibly spread over here.

And as far as dismissing points of view, credibility isn't something you're entitled to, it has to be earned, and if you are just regurgitating the same talking points that avowed racists are spewing right now, you shouldn't be surprised if you get pushback.

Alright, since I’m not allowed to think for myself or have diverging opinions can you tell me which publications you get your information from so I know which way I’m supposed to think please?

[Jackalope89]

Well, okay then. I’m think it’s really unfair to dismiss someone’s point of view because of what other people in their country say or do. If that were the case then people would dismiss anything any American says because some people wear hoods and burn crosses. It’s ridiculous. Why even converse with people if you won’t argue in good faith? You may as well just post statuses on Facebook.

Anyway, there are valid points there to consider. Why was the Western response so deficient and is this China blaming simply a matter of arse-covering? Very likely in the case of Trump and the USA. But what did China know and when did it know? These are questions are unlikely to be answered because of the nature of the communist dictatorship. Some people are comfortable with that. I’m not. And I don’t think the Wuhan whistleblower doctor who “disappeared” was either.

China's Communist Party covering up a highly contagious and dangerous virus that could not only embarrass them, but make them look bad on the international stage?

Yeah. Not saying it common sense is involved (their leader has banned Winnie the Pooh for being compared to him), but yeah.


As for Donald "The Orange Menace" Trump? The only thing he had been able to tout was "his strong economy", which broke overnight once it came to light about Covid-19. So, other than superficial decrees (banning Chinese nationals from traveling to China, but not quarantining Americans returning from there), he wasn't going to do a damn thing that might hurt the stock market. Since then, well, its only showed just how incompetent (and corrupt) he and his administration are.

[jetengine]

"China does highly shady shit that endangers the rest of the world"

"Yes but somehow this is the wests fault, let us ignore China and self flaggelate instead of identifying the cause of this global issue"

[WestPhillyPunisher]

Ventilators In Short Supply In Africa As Experts Estimate Millions Of Possible COVID Deaths

Ten African countries have no ventilators at all, and necessities like oxygen and masks — and even soap and water — are scarce across the continent.

**********

Trump Defends Right-Wing Protesters Fighting Coronavirus Restrictions: ‘These Are Great People’

The president’s enabling response to the anti-safety protesters echoed his handling of the 2017 violent white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia. Yeah, chances are those "great people" will end up infected, perhaps dead.

**********

Black-White Divide Grows Starker As More Coronavirus Data Emerges

An analysis of available data found nearly one-third of those who have died from the coronavirus are Black.

**********

Coronavirus Pandemic Prompts Spike In Demand For Food Pantries

Just as demand is skyrocketing, however, many of the food banks’ sources are drying up.

**********

Governors Call Trump’s Testing Claims ‘Delusional’ And ‘Absolutely False’

Ralph Northam and Larry Hogan told Sunday talk shows that states do not have the testing supplies needed to “reopen” the economy by May 1.

**********

Ellen Pompeo Drags ‘Old White Guy TV Docs’ After Dr. Phil, Dr. Oz Backlash

The “Grey’s Anatomy” star has a zero tolerance policy for pundits preaching “stupid selfish s**t” during the coronavirus outbreak.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I distinctly remember the atmosphere post 9/11, nationalistic fervor was at an all time high and I didn't know of a single person who would come out and say that going to war was the wrong move or that Muslims deserve any kind of sympathy whatsoever.

You weren't around a lot of liberals. That was all we discussed when it was on, including on this very forum. Categorising every American in that time frame as being totally on board with Bush is completely wrong by every metric, and shows a willingly not to address the nation isn't determined by the worst of our neighbours.

Edit: What's your opinion on Russia's annexation of Ukraine?

Sure, after the Iraq War turned into a quagmire all of the anti-war people came out of the woodwork and acted like they had been saying that it was a bad idea all along.

Maybe that's what it was like in Communist circles, in liberal ones we were furious and frustrated. Clearly your'e forgetting the protests, and public opposition in multiple countries.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...aq-war-marches

Anti-war protesters gathered in towns and cities around the world to oppose the 2003 invasion of Iraq. In the UK, the movement became the biggest public protest the country had ever seen. Yet despite mass public opposition, the invasion went ahead a little over a month later.

Evidence in the Chilcot report, published on Wednesday, was vindication for all those who were passionately opposed to the war, specifically those against British involvement in the conflict.

As for Russia, you know you can hardly blame them for taking a hostile stance toward the US, they bought into all of our freedomizing propaganda after the fall of the USSR about how capitalism and democracy would bring peace, stability, and prosperity, and as a result they suffered through a horrific calamity that saw just about every part of their economy stripped and sold for parts for pennies on the dollar to enrich a corrupt oligarch class.

This is a justification, not a reason. It was wrong what America did to Russia during their transition, however, this in no way is excusable to support Putin over Biden. It makes every argument you've made about the Democrats being conservative moot, since how far right a country goes isn't a factor in whether you'll defend them. This completely misses the fact that Putin thrived and continued this practice when he took power, where are your protests for that? Not that the USSR was any better before Putin arrived.

[worstblogever]

On this date in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, as well as 2019, "Crazy/Stupid Republican of the Day" published profiles of Kentucky State Senator C.B. Embry, who we recognized in our first profile as the sponsor of legislation that would offer a $2500 bounty on transgender public school students using the "incorrect bathroom". This was in January 2015 (right after he won a new term in the state senate), and not long thereafter, he killed a bill about trying to decide how school superintendents are picked by trying to sneak an amendment on it for a ban on transgender citizens using public bathrooms (sadly, Embry's brand of transphobic madness has now become the status quo of Republican domestic policy). Embry has also palled around with Kentucky clerk Kim Davis, supporting her homophobic quest against same sex marriage so much that he sponsored SB 5, a "religious freedom" law to allow for discrimination against LGBTQ citizens. Rounding out Embry's profile, he repeatedly has supported legislation to require mandatory (but medically unnecessary) ultrasounds on all abortions without exception, even, for victims of rape and incest, supported a TRAP law to attempt to shut down all abortion clinics in his state, wants concealed carry of firearms without a permit for all citizens, voted for a bill which would define first responders as a protected class in hate crimes legislation (which he really don't think it's bad, but the fact that he thinks it shouldn't apply to LGBT citizens, who are BORN gay, but it should apply to people based on their employment choices is troubling), and under his "legislative priorities" on Project Vote Smart, lists "the coal industry" as his top concern, which is as honest of him as it is downright sad for his constituents. In 2018, Embry supported legislation to ban abortion at 11 weeks, because if a 20-week ban will get overturned by the courts as unconstitutional via Roe v. Wade, surely an eleven week ban would get the support of a judge, right? (NO.)

C.B. Embry is currently 78 years old, and fresh off of a re-election campaign that saw him granted a return to office with 67% of the vote. He has decided to up the ante for unconstitutional anti-choice legislation even farther than his last term in office, this time becoming the sponsor of a fetal heartbeat bill, effectively trying to outlaw the procedure at 6 weeks this time.

We’re expecting Embry to run for re-election in 2022 when he’s in his eighties and watch him try and overturn Roe v. Wade outright.