All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[jetengine]

Lol.

People living in UK have not been marginalised by “right wing ideologies”....the people doing these terrible acts in UK have same rights as any other citizen.

They have been brainwashed by extreme religious zealots.

But I’m confident you’ll carry on believing there is only one source of evil in the world.

Ok so who's been pushing the "All muslims are all evil terrorists bs?" Wow its the Conservative party, right wing newspapers and right wing hategroups *

These muslims are then shat on by society, mistrusted and treated poorly, leaving their only avenues of friendship being their own community and echo chambers allowing them to fall into the arms of zealots


What do those Extreme religious zealots believe in ? Wow its an extremely conservative version of their own religion.

Anyone can be evil, the right wing admantly pushes it because its really fucking easy to get rich doing so and conservatism requireds sticking to the status quo, thus negating progress and progress is certainly required.

*That doesn't negate that left wing anti Muslim stuff exists, it certainly does. But its massively outstripped ny the right wing hate machine.

[ed2962]

Henry Ford?

But seriously there’s a lot to analyze in terms geopolitics as to why the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed. I think we can all agree that Hitler, Stalin and Mao did some really shitty things, shitty being a massive understatement.

In terms of comics, do you think the freedom-loving anti-lockdown protesters would have rooted for Batman in The Dark Knight? I mean, there was a massive violation of privacy and civil liberties when he used the people’s phones to save a lot of lives from a madman.

Yes. Bruce was a rich manly man who was getting tough on crime. He broke a few rules but his actions made Gotham great again. Surely not all but I'll bet many of this crowd didn't care about the civil liberties of Travon Martin.

[JackDaw]

Ok so who's been pushing the "All muslims are all evil terrorists bs?" Wow its the Conservative party, right wing newspapers and right wing hategroups *

These muslims are then shat on by society, mistrusted and treated poorly, leaving their only avenues of friendship being their own community and echo chambers allowing them to fall into the arms of zealots


What do those Extreme religious zealots believe in ? Wow its an extremely conservative version of their own religion.

Anyone can be evil, the right wing admantly pushes it because its really fucking easy to get rich doing so and conservatism requireds sticking to the status quo, thus negating progress and progress is certainly required.

*That doesn't negate that left wing anti Muslim stuff exists, it certainly does. But its massively outstripped ny the right wing hate machine.

First, no recent UK government...Labour, Conservative, or Coalition has passed any law that discriminated against Muslims.

The problem with anti- Muslim stuff iis not down to Goldilocks government, but is a general problem in our society.

Looking at everything in terms of right/ left is an incredibly over simplistic way of looking at reality..it’s useful for some purposes, not for others.

I personally would find it difficult to categorise Muslim belief as right or left. I think there’s at least a case for arguing it’s leftist, it’s values are communal and reject the profit motive. Certainly a large majority of British Muslims sensibly vote Labour (mid sixties percent) or Lib Dem rather than Tory.

Looking at a slightly (but only slightly) more complex way of categorising political behaviour: The Political Compass. This argues behaviour should be looked at using two axes: Economic (right or left) and Social (Authoritarian or Libertarian).

I believe more evil is associated with extreme authoritarianism, rather than right/left.

[WillieMorgan]

Ok so who's been pushing the "All muslims are all evil terrorists bs?" Wow its the Conservative party, right wing newspapers and right wing hategroups *

These muslims are then shat on by society, mistrusted and treated poorly, leaving their only avenues of friendship being their own community and echo chambers allowing them to fall into the arms of zealots


What do those Extreme religious zealots believe in ? Wow its an extremely conservative version of their own religion.

Anyone can be evil, the right wing admantly pushes it because its really fucking easy to get rich doing so and conservatism requireds sticking to the status quo, thus negating progress and progress is certainly required.

*That doesn't negate that left wing anti Muslim stuff exists, it certainly does. But its massively outstripped ny the right wing hate machine.

That's absolute nonsense. Nothing more than militant crap. I defy you to provide a single credible example of either the Tories or the right-wing media pushing that narrative. Not the likes of the idiots in the English Defence League or the BNP, I'm not interested in their horseshit, the actual mainstream media or the Tory Party itself. That post is nothing more than you taking a very important issue in our society and skewing it through your own filter to suit a militant worldview.

Whilst it's true that marginalism and vulnerability can be elements in why a young muslim would be tempted into extremism, it's much more nuanced than you are trying to paint it. This Opinion Piece from Kamran Ahmed in The Guardian, published just after the 2017 Manchester attack which was VERY close to home for me personally, is as good as anything in explaining why young people are such easy prey for extremism and how to combat it:

'As the dust settles on the traumatising attack in Manchester, we are left grieving and searching for an explanation for this senseless violence. Some will have you believe that Islam is at fault since verses of the Qur’an legitimise such violence, while their opponents point out that the ideology fuelling these acts of terror is a twisted perversion of the religion. The fact remains that there are approximately 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, the overwhelming majority of whom abhor Isis and the evil it represents. So what is driving a handful of extremists to commit horrific acts of mass murder in the name of Islam?

Western foreign policy has often been cited as an important driver, but there are countless law-abiding British citizens of all faiths who disagree with recent foreign policy who do not feel compelled to wreak bloody havoc on account of it.

One contributing factor might be a concept drawn from the world of cultural psychiatry: acculturation – the process of balancing two competing cultural influences.

For example, being a second-generation British Pakistani, I have Pakistani cultural influence from my parents, and white British cultural influence from the host nation competing within me. There can be a number of possible outcomes to this process: deculturation, when a migrant loses all touch with their culture of origin; assimilation, when they retain some loose association with it but fully adopt the culture of the host nation; integration, when they retain strong ties with their culture of origin but are fully functioning members of society; and rejection, when they reject the host-nation culture completely in favour of their culture of origin.

The outcome of the acculturation process can be influenced by a range of factors,among them peer groups, familial relationships, personality, socioeconomics and the degree of acceptance or otherwise from the ethnic majority. The process can be a stressful one: trying to meet the cultural expectations of parents while trying to fit in with peers; dealing with experiences of racism; balancing religious and western values – it poses a challenge for many Muslim youths living in western countries today.

For those who find themselves at odds with the culture of their parents, and yet are met with hostility from the culture of the society they live in, exiting the acculturation paradigm to embrace a third culture that provides them with a sense of belonging may be an appealing option. In this case their minds become fertile ground for radicalisation.

This is akin to the pathway into gang culture for young people around the world – a sense of alienation from family and society at large delivers them into the hands of older gang leaders. The counterculture for young Muslim men at odds with society nowadays is not gang culture but radical extremist factions that offer self-esteem and identity in exchange for allegiance to a violent and morally bankrupt manifesto. Once they are members of the subversive peer group, alarming ideas and behaviours can become normalised very quickly indeed.

Socioeconomic factors have also been implicated in the process of radicalisation (poverty, lack of opportunity, unemployment, poor education), and although this is conceivable, the evidence is limited. Perhaps the low self-esteem brought on by marginalisation is the mediator here, traded readily by some disaffected Muslim youths for the perceived sense of purpose and status associated with being a jihadi.

As well as drawing recruits into the fold, extremist hate-preachers and the slick Isis propaganda machine play a significant role in converting the radicalised into actual terrorists. Perhaps those most likely to make the transition from radical to terrorist are the exceedingly vulnerable, who are highly susceptible to jihadi rhetoric, and narcissistic psychopaths, who might revel in the notoriety of being a terrorist.

Although the factors that lead to radicalisation are still poorly understood, and are as complex as the acts of terror are devastating, some common themes are evident, and we should respond accordingly. Collective community action has been a prominent feature in anti-gang strategies around the world, and may prove effective in opposing this new type of thuggery, starting with closer ties and cooperation between Muslim and non-Muslim communities and a concerted effort to open a dialogue with at-risk individuals.

Moderate Muslim scholars need to provide the theological ammunition to oppose the vile ideas peddled by extremist recruiters while security forces take action against them. And the media must present a counter-narrative to Isis propaganda, showing young Muslims they are accepted in the west and can find their sense of belonging here. The next government would do well to shift the focus of the Prevent strategy from community policing (which causes distrust) to community engagement, as well as taking a fresh approach to foreign policy and making efforts to reduce rather than proliferate social inequality for minority groups.

Finally, Muslim parents should be flexible in their demands that their children follow their cultural values and traditions where these are unlikely to lead to a favourable acculturation outcome for them. After all, nothing can be worse for a Muslim immigrant parent who builds a new home in the west, with hopes and dreams for their family, than to see their child become a murderous suicide bomber.

It is right for us to defiantly carry on with our lives after an attack, but too many innocent lives have been lost and we must take action to address the factors that underlie this problem if we are to prevent further suffering. Terrorists seek to divide us; the only way we can defeat this evil is by working together.'

I had to copy and paste it as I couldn't create a link.

[jetengine]

The fact that the Muslim Council of Britain has been demanding for an investigation of the tory party for years somehow isnt enough ? Like come on dude. It was the most obvious thing people consistently pointed out during the ridiculous "Corbyns an anti-semite" debacle that for all the Tories warblings they had a disturbingly longer and worst record of Islamophobia
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...-to-be-kidding

[Steel Inquisitor]

First, no recent UK government...Labour, Conservative, or Coalition has passed any law that discriminated against Muslims.

The problem with anti- Muslim stuff iis not down to Goldilocks government, but is a general problem in our society.

Looking at everything in terms of right/ left is an incredibly over simplistic way of looking at reality..it’s useful for some purposes, not for others.

I personally would find it difficult to categorise Muslim belief as right or left. I think there’s at least a case for arguing it’s leftist, it’s values are communal and reject the profit motive. Certainly a large majority of British Muslims sensibly vote Labour (mid sixties percent) or Lib Dem rather than Tory.

Islam is a religion with various sects of both political sides.

Looking at a slightly (but only slightly) more complex way of categorising political behaviour: The Political Compass. This argues behaviour should be looked at using two axes: Economic (right or left) and Social (Authoritarian or Libertarian).

Whatever you're using isn't right when "social" positions aren't all relegated to either of those options.

I believe more evil is associated with extreme authoritarianism, rather than right/left.

Close, left and right politics are wrong when they get too extreme then we get the Horseshoe Theory. That's why going too far in either direction leads to disaster.

[jetengine]

Islam is a religion with various sects of both political sides.
.

Yeah, its why people get pissed off with the Saudis exporting their ultra conservative Wahabbi radicals to other nations.

[PwrdOn]

That's absolute nonsense. Nothing more than militant crap. I defy you to provide a single credible example of either the Tories or the right-wing media pushing that narrative. Not the likes of the idiots in the English Defence League or the BNP, I'm not interested in their horseshit, the actual mainstream media or the Tory Party itself. That post is nothing more than you taking a very important issue in our society and skewing it through your own filter to suit a militant worldview.

Whilst it's true that marginalism and vulnerability can be elements in why a young muslim would be tempted into extremism, it's much more nuanced than you are trying to paint it. This Opinion Piece from Kamran Ahmed in The Guardian, published just after the 2017 Manchester attack which was VERY close to home for me personally, is as good as anything in explaining why young people are such easy prey for extremism and how to combat it:

'As the dust settles on the traumatising attack in Manchester, we are left grieving and searching for an explanation for this senseless violence. Some will have you believe that Islam is at fault since verses of the Qur’an legitimise such violence, while their opponents point out that the ideology fuelling these acts of terror is a twisted perversion of the religion. The fact remains that there are approximately 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, the overwhelming majority of whom abhor Isis and the evil it represents. So what is driving a handful of extremists to commit horrific acts of mass murder in the name of Islam?

Western foreign policy has often been cited as an important driver, but there are countless law-abiding British citizens of all faiths who disagree with recent foreign policy who do not feel compelled to wreak bloody havoc on account of it.

One contributing factor might be a concept drawn from the world of cultural psychiatry: acculturation – the process of balancing two competing cultural influences.

For example, being a second-generation British Pakistani, I have Pakistani cultural influence from my parents, and white British cultural influence from the host nation competing within me. There can be a number of possible outcomes to this process: deculturation, when a migrant loses all touch with their culture of origin; assimilation, when they retain some loose association with it but fully adopt the culture of the host nation; integration, when they retain strong ties with their culture of origin but are fully functioning members of society; and rejection, when they reject the host-nation culture completely in favour of their culture of origin.

The outcome of the acculturation process can be influenced by a range of factors,among them peer groups, familial relationships, personality, socioeconomics and the degree of acceptance or otherwise from the ethnic majority. The process can be a stressful one: trying to meet the cultural expectations of parents while trying to fit in with peers; dealing with experiences of racism; balancing religious and western values – it poses a challenge for many Muslim youths living in western countries today.

For those who find themselves at odds with the culture of their parents, and yet are met with hostility from the culture of the society they live in, exiting the acculturation paradigm to embrace a third culture that provides them with a sense of belonging may be an appealing option. In this case their minds become fertile ground for radicalisation.

This is akin to the pathway into gang culture for young people around the world – a sense of alienation from family and society at large delivers them into the hands of older gang leaders. The counterculture for young Muslim men at odds with society nowadays is not gang culture but radical extremist factions that offer self-esteem and identity in exchange for allegiance to a violent and morally bankrupt manifesto. Once they are members of the subversive peer group, alarming ideas and behaviours can become normalised very quickly indeed.

Socioeconomic factors have also been implicated in the process of radicalisation (poverty, lack of opportunity, unemployment, poor education), and although this is conceivable, the evidence is limited. Perhaps the low self-esteem brought on by marginalisation is the mediator here, traded readily by some disaffected Muslim youths for the perceived sense of purpose and status associated with being a jihadi.

As well as drawing recruits into the fold, extremist hate-preachers and the slick Isis propaganda machine play a significant role in converting the radicalised into actual terrorists. Perhaps those most likely to make the transition from radical to terrorist are the exceedingly vulnerable, who are highly susceptible to jihadi rhetoric, and narcissistic psychopaths, who might revel in the notoriety of being a terrorist.

Although the factors that lead to radicalisation are still poorly understood, and are as complex as the acts of terror are devastating, some common themes are evident, and we should respond accordingly. Collective community action has been a prominent feature in anti-gang strategies around the world, and may prove effective in opposing this new type of thuggery, starting with closer ties and cooperation between Muslim and non-Muslim communities and a concerted effort to open a dialogue with at-risk individuals.

Moderate Muslim scholars need to provide the theological ammunition to oppose the vile ideas peddled by extremist recruiters while security forces take action against them. And the media must present a counter-narrative to Isis propaganda, showing young Muslims they are accepted in the west and can find their sense of belonging here. The next government would do well to shift the focus of the Prevent strategy from community policing (which causes distrust) to community engagement, as well as taking a fresh approach to foreign policy and making efforts to reduce rather than proliferate social inequality for minority groups.

Finally, Muslim parents should be flexible in their demands that their children follow their cultural values and traditions where these are unlikely to lead to a favourable acculturation outcome for them. After all, nothing can be worse for a Muslim immigrant parent who builds a new home in the west, with hopes and dreams for their family, than to see their child become a murderous suicide bomber.

It is right for us to defiantly carry on with our lives after an attack, but too many innocent lives have been lost and we must take action to address the factors that underlie this problem if we are to prevent further suffering. Terrorists seek to divide us; the only way we can defeat this evil is by working together.'

I had to copy and paste it as I couldn't create a link.

The way the writer approaches the topic tells you all need to know, doesn't it? The backlash from an overly aggressive foreign policy is dismissed in a single sentence, despite it being a much greater humanitarian crisis that has produced a death toll several orders of magnitude higher than Islamic terror attacks in the West, which are well-publicized but have had a comparatively insignificant impact. All of these issues of acculturation and marginalization come down to the long standing power imbalance between white Westerners and everyone else, after all there are many British people working overseas, but when is the last time you heard anyone suggest they should be forcibly assimilated into the local culture?

[WillieMorgan]

The fact that the Muslim Council of Britain has been demanding for an investigation of the tory party for years somehow isnt enough ? Like come on dude. It was the most obvious thing people consistently pointed out during the ridiculous "Corbyns an anti-semite" debacle that for all the Tories warblings they had a disturbingly longer and worst record of Islamophobia
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...-to-be-kidding

Nope. That's a deflection. That article relates to misleading journalism and the need for it to be held accountable. Of course our media can be irresponsible and of course they need to be called out for that, for all parts of our society not just muslims. You directly ascribed Islamic militancy to some right-wing 'All muslims are terrorists! Burn the witch!' narrative that we are all apparently being brain-washed by. That simply isn't the case. Not outside the usual gaggle of moronic extreme right groups.

Muslims in this country are bound by the same laws and privileges that you and I are. Is it more difficult for them at times as a minority? Sure and that's not fair. Extremism and the unfortunate path to it is FAR more nuanced than it simply being a 'right-wing' plot. That's just your own brand of militancy talking.

[jetengine]

Nope. That's a deflection. That article relates to misleading journalism and the need for it to be held accountable. Of course our media can be irresponsible and of course they need to be called out for that, for all parts of our society not just muslims. You directly ascribed Islamic militancy to some right-wing 'All muslims are terrorists! Burn the witch!' narrative that we are all apparently being brain-washed by. That simply isn't the case. Not outside the usual gaggle of moronic extreme right groups.

Muslims in this country are bound by the same laws and privileges that you and I are. Is it more difficult for them at times as a minority? Sure and that's not fair. Extremism and the unfortunate path to it is FAR more nuanced than it simply being a 'right-wing' plot. That's just your own brand of militancy talking.

I'm not saying its brainwashing, I'm saying the social culture pushes muslims away so they can go many ways, this includes extremism. Because if your shat on so often what have you got to lose ? At least to some.

Or to put it simpler.

Right wing punditry plays stupid games ("All muslims are terrorist ragh ragh") they then get stupid prizes ("Why are muslims feeling resentful and joining extreme hate groups?"

[TheDarman]

Folks are now digging into old conspiracy theories run by a smear-artist who once accused Bill Clinton of murder. What is the new one they have focused on? That Biden assaulted a staffer in another Senate office between late 1972 and early 1973.

The issue with this? Biden wasn’t even elected until November of 1972 and was sworn in on the bedside of one his severely injured children. He didn’t go into the Senate in actuality for months.

[WillieMorgan]

The way the writer approaches the topic tells you all need to know, doesn't it? The backlash from an overly aggressive foreign policy is dismissed in a single sentence, despite it being a much greater humanitarian crisis that has produced a death toll several orders of magnitude higher than Islamic terror attacks in the West, which are well-publicized but have had a comparatively insignificant impact. All of these issues of acculturation and marginalization come down to the long standing power imbalance between white Westerners and everyone else, after all there are many British people working overseas, but when is the last time you heard anyone suggest they should be forcibly assimilated into the local culture?

That's true. The author skips over the long term effects of recent Western foreign policy with almost indecent haste. I copied the whole article in the interests of fairness though.

The purpose of posting that essay wasn't to try and cover up any Western blame, simply to point out that the road to extremism is a very multi-faceted one. I'm not saying that I agree with every word of it.

[shooshoomanjoe]

The evangelical church using fear mongering against the virus.

The idea is that, soon, lockdowns around the world will be lifted—but only for those immune to the coronavirus. You will have to be tested to see if you’ve had the disease or be given a vaccine. Once that’s happened, you’ll be issued a certificate, identity card or tattoo. To travel and work freely, you’ll have to show this proof that you’re not infectious. In this way, millions will be tricked into receiving some kind of mark. Could this be the “mark of the beast”?

[worstblogever]

The U.S. economy shrank a staggering 4.8% in the First Quarter of 2020. That's the biggest drop since... 4th Quarter of 2008, during the housing crisis.

I'm not saying that the last to Republican presidencies collapsing in the fourth year of their terms is a coincidence, but... it's almost like they have no idea how to govern.

[WillieMorgan]

I'm not saying its brainwashing, I'm saying the social culture pushes muslims away so they can go many ways, this includes extremism. Because if your shat on so often what have you got to lose ? At least to some.

Or to put it simpler.

Right wing punditry plays stupid games ("All muslims are terrorist ragh ragh") they then get stupid prizes ("Why are muslims feeling resentful and joining extreme hate groups?"

Again, please find me that headline for real. Or even a close approximation of it. Not in some crappy pamphlet by the English Defense League but in the mainstream media.

Your initial comments were effectively telling us that British muslims were being pushed into extremism simply by reading nasty headlines about themselves in rags like The Sun or being directly victimised by the government. That's just not true. Whilst marginalisation is certainly a factor yes, there are a number of social and peer-pressure reasons as to why this happens sadly.