All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[Gray Lensman]

I'm not quite following you.
If they didn't create it, they got it from samples outside the laboratory. That means the virus was out there already and likely to spread.

I think they were trying to identify any potential natural viruses in advance and one of the samples got out. While it would probably have reached the human population eventually, that fubar made it happen well before it would have under natural circumstances.

And like all authoritarian regimes, the initial response was to hide anything that might embarrass them rather than alert anyone else to the problem. At least not before it was a little too late.

None of this excuses Trump's incredibly poor response, since there were many things he could control but didn't, and even the one or two things he did right were not done completely and were undermined as a result.

[PwrdOn]

You'd be right if Reades story passed, it clearly doesnt though. Its ridiculous bullshit. Fords story was watertight comparably and she had just as long (longer?) time in between it happening and unlike Tara was forced to throw it out into the light meaning she couldnt collect herself.

a
In most sexual assault cases there is no smoking gun and it's just one person's word against another, which in practice meant that a lot of rich and powerful men could get away with anything given the slightest hint of plausible deniability. This is why the MeToo movement always emphasized believing women by default, because if nothing else, erring on the side of protecting victims would serve as a stronger deterrent to potential predators. But that's all out the window now, since pretty much every woman with a platform has come out in support of Biden, which basically undermines this whole movement because they could hardly go back to #BelieveWomen after this.

[PaulBullion]

I think they were trying to identify any potential natural viruses in advance and one of the samples got out. While it would probably have reached the human population eventually, that fubar made it happen well before it would have under natural circumstances.

And like all authoritarian regimes, the initial response was to hide anything that might embarrass them rather than alert anyone else to the problem. At least not before it was a little too late.

None of this excuses Trump's incredibly poor response, since there were many things he could control but didn't, and even the one or two things he did right were not done completely and were undermined as a result.

Still not following.


If it was a virus that could be passed from human to human, they got it from a human. Then it was out there.

If it was an animal virus and something they did in the lab made it a zoonose virus, that would be the only scenario where "the virus getting out" has any significance. But WHO says there is no evidence it was a lab manufactured virus.

[jetengine]

a
In most sexual assault cases there is no smoking gun and it's just one person's word against another, which in practice meant that a lot of rich and powerful men could get away with anything given the slightest hint of plausible deniability. This is why the MeToo movement always emphasized believing women by default, because if nothing else, erring on the side of protecting victims would serve as a stronger deterrent to potential predators. But that's all out the window now, since pretty much every woman with a platform has come out in support of Biden, which basically undermines this whole movement because they could hardly go back to #BelieveWomen after this.

I believed Reade. Then I looked at the facts. The facts clearly showcase shes not credible in the slightest. At best she's a horribly partisan hack, willing to use her sexual assault as a weapon because "her guy" didn't get in. At worse she's making up fake allegations in some disturbing attempt to aid bernie/putin.

[PaulBullion]

a
In most sexual assault cases there is no smoking gun and it's just one person's word against another, which in practice meant that a lot of rich and powerful men could get away with anything given the slightest hint of plausible deniability. This is why the MeToo movement always emphasized believing women by default, because if nothing else, erring on the side of protecting victims would serve as a stronger deterrent to potential predators. But that's all out the window now, since pretty much every woman with a platform has come out in support of Biden, which basically undermines this whole movement because they could hardly go back to #BelieveWomen after this.

Narrator's voice:

"It's not all out the window now."

[Striderblack01]

Now you're tone policing. This thread's had numerous heated arguments from both sides, the question is why are you only focusing on one side to cool it rather than both? It was be remiss of me to ignore the facts about the politics involved, which you insist on not acknowledging as though doing so would cause both sides to come together in peace. Peace requires the other side is willing to listen and put down their arms. What convinced you the more heated Leftists would be open to a truce?

I mean, when these guys actively promote not voting, letting Trump win "to show them", actively salivating at the idea of your nation burning to the ground so they can 'inevitably win', promote Republican propaganda, promote violent tankie brands of communism (the kind where you agree or die) is it not surprising the more centralised groups treat them warily at best.

Hell we had people in this very thread say "Bernies win is inevitable, you'll all bend the knee or be destroyed" and our (very patient I might add) response was "Dont count your chickens" or pointing out how disturbung such talk sounds or another member who --as soon as it was clear Bernie had lost--- threw a shitfit, said he wouldn't vote and (when asked about how he could consider himself a progressive if he was willing to let others be hurt worse with Trump) saud he didnt give a **** because he was well off so who cares ?

These online "on-the-ground" conversations carry more weight than people realize.

Somewhere along the line, we went from rightfully criticizing bad-faith actors and outliers in the Progressive movement, to criticizing and scapegoating all the Progressive Left.
And that's dangerous for us come November (and beyond).

Since the Center-Left candidate won, it's their responsibility to continue building a winning coalition.
So it makes sense that their base should mirror the candidate's position and be the ones to begin the reconciliation process.

I'm not worried about the "Sanders-turned-Trump" voters.
I'm infinitely far more worried about keeping regular Progressive voters.
I'm worried that in our pursuit of the former, we are missing, or actively discouraging, the latter.

If the choice they are considering is begrudgingly staying in the DNC and voting for Joe, or leaving for a Third-Party, which likely more closely aligns with their views, then we need to make it appealing for them to stay.
And that requires empathy, listening, and even a little salesmanship.

My humble suggestion: Stop being baited and stop wasting your time. Start building those bridges.

Having said all that, if you still find yourself resisting this message, you may want to ask yourself, which do you like more:
Complaining about people and scapegoating, or actively helping the DNC win elections?

But, hey - I'm just a failed tech support guy.
What would I know?

[PaulBullion]

These online "on-the-ground" conversations carry more weight than people realize.

Somewhere along the line, we went from rightfully criticizing bad-faith actors and outliers in the Progressive movement, to criticizing and scapegoating all the Progressive Left.
And that's dangerous for us come November (and beyond).

Since the Center-Left candidate won, it's their responsibility to continue building a winning coalition.
So it makes sense that their base should mirror the candidate's position and be the ones to begin the reconciliation process.

I'm not worried about the "Sanders-turned-Trump" voters.
I'm infinitely far more worried about keeping regular Progressive voters.
I'm worried that in our pursuit of the former, we are missing, or actively discouraging, the latter.

If the choice they are considering is begrudgingly staying in the DNC and voting for Joe, or leaving for a Third-Party, which likely more closely aligns with their views, then we need to make it appealing for them to stay.
And that requires empathy, listening, and even a little salesmanship.

My humble suggestion: Stop being baited and stop wasting your time. Start building those bridges.

Having said all that, if you still find yourself resisting this message, you may want to ask yourself, which do you like more:
Complaining about people and scapegoating, or actively helping the DNC win elections?

But, hey - I'm just a failed tech support guy.
What would I know?

Serious question:

how would you go about building a bridge with, say, this guy:

https://twitter.com/jvgraz/with_replies

[Striderblack01]

Serious question:

how would you go about building a bridge with, say, this guy:

https://twitter.com/jvgraz/with_replies

I'd call Tier 2.

[Gray Lensman]

Still not following.


If it was a virus that could be passed from human to human, they got it from a human. Then it was out there.

If it was an animal virus and something they did in the lab made it a zoonose virus, that would be the only scenario where "the virus getting out" has any significance. But WHO says there is no evidence it was a lab manufactured virus.

Viruses can mutate on their own, or transfer from species to species. Without knowing everything, we can only speculate on specifics. But suppose they acquired a sample of bat virus y that comes from someplace humans almost never visit (deep in some wilderness preserve of something) and it either gains the ability to jump species, or already was able to infect humans but never had one nearby until now. Then someone doesn't follow protocols (or the protocols just weren't good enough, COVID-19 is insanely contagious to a shocking degree) and you have the escape scenario.

So basically...

1 - virus exists in wild, has never had contact with humans.

2- sample is acquired for lab, introducing virus to new potential host species.

3 - interaction with new environment enables virus to gain special ability: infect human beings

4 - insufficient safety protocols result in virus leaving lab and entering general populace. Pandemic results

It isn't hard to follow if you don't overthink it. But until there is more of an investigation we can't really know how it happened, or if. Outside of the "keep it under wraps to prevent loss of face" which we already know has happened to some degree, and is sadly par for the course with many big organizations, be they nations, corporations, or even churches or private clubs. The tendency to hide the bad thing rather than get ahead of dealing with it happens in too many places.

[PwrdOn]

Viruses can mutate on their own, or transfer from species to species. Without knowing everything, we can only speculate on specifics. But suppose they acquired a sample of bat virus y that comes from someplace humans almost never visit (deep in some wilderness preserve of something) and it either gains the ability to jump species, or already was able to infect humans but never had one nearby until now. Then someone doesn't follow protocols (or the protocols just weren't good enough, COVID-19 is insanely contagious to a shocking degree) and you have the escape scenario.

So basically...

1 - virus exists in wild, has never had contact with humans.

2- sample is acquired for lab, introducing virus to new potential host species.

3 - interaction with new environment enables virus to gain special ability: infect human beings

4 - insufficient safety protocols result in virus leaving lab and entering general populace. Pandemic results

It isn't hard to follow if you don't overthink it. But until there is more of an investigation we can't really know how it happened, or if. Outside of the "keep it under wraps to prevent loss of face" which we already know has happened to some degree, and is sadly par for the course with many big organizations, be they nations, corporations, or even churches or private clubs. The tendency to hide the bad thing rather than get ahead of dealing with it happens in too many places.

I'm not going to call you a tin foil hatter but like, you're at least at aluminum or copper level. When even the CIA has declared there is no evidence this virus came from a lab even though they have every incentive to claim that it did regardless of whether they found anything, you know that it has absolutely no legs. The only reason it's still in the news at all is because it dovetails well with the Trump administration's agenda of trying to deflect all the blame for the virus onto China rather than its own mishandling of the crisis at home, and it has totally worked because Americans are all too ready to believe whatever insane conspiracies about China for what are I'm sure totally legitimate and non-racist reasons.

[jetengine]

Its not labmade, if it was labmade it'd be deadlier

[Starter Set]

Its not labmade, if it was labmade it'd be deadlier

It's not a very agressive virus indeed, thanks the stars. Considering how fast it can spread we were lucky.

[Gray Lensman]

Its not labmade, if it was labmade it'd be deadlier

The stories I have read haven't claimed lab-made, but speculated that this was part of a program to identify naturally occurring viruses and try to get ahead of the next outbreak, only it got away from them instead. The only accusation of anything nefarious is that of a cover up.

Even if it was deliberately released by a disgruntled employee who decided to cull humanity (which I am 100% sure is NOT the case) Trump's piss poor response in all on Trump alone. He was warned months ago and dismissed it, refused to prepare in advance, refused to use the power of the federal government to do anything other than run interference on those states that didn't show him enough love (something I'd only expect from someone like Idi Amin), and is still trying to undermine the shelter in place orders because he wants the economy to recover in time for November.

[Gray Lensman]

It's not a very agressive virus indeed, thanks the stars. Considering how fast it can spread we were lucky.

Sci-show mentioned twice as infectious as SARS was. Where each person would infect 3 with SARS, each person with COVID infects 6.

[jetengine]

The stories I have read haven't claimed lab-made, but speculated that this was part of a program to identify naturally occurring viruses and try to get ahead of the next outbreak, only it got away from them instead. The only accusation of anything nefarious is that of a cover up.

Even if it was deliberately released by a disgruntled employee who decided to cull humanity (which I am 100% sure is NOT the case) Trump's piss poor response in all on Trump alone. He was warned months ago and dismissed it, refused to prepare in advance, refused to use the power of the federal government to do anything other than run interference on those states that didn't show him enough love (something I'd only expect from someone like Idi Amin), and is still trying to undermine the shelter in place orders because he wants the economy to recover in time for November.

Why even talk about this lab sillyness then ? We're very aware of the cover up attempts.