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  1. #4516
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    Also, I would love to see evidence that a 1994 piece of legislation cost HRC votes. Sounds like convenient conjecture.

  2. #4517
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Do you disagree with his evidence or his conclusions?
    I disagree with elevating someone who promotes race science. Also, Sullivan's judgment has long been suspect on a /lot/ of things.

  3. #4518
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    To put it all in reasonably simple terms...

    Recent polling points pretty clearly to that Sanders has the support of young minority voters.
    Recent polling also shows that Biden clearly has the support of the majority of black voters and that he's the best suited to beat Trump.

    Especially in critical swing states that will most likely determine the election.

    Your attempts at cherry-picking polls and creating false narratives are blatantly transparent.

    You preach about not ignoring things and addressing them directly, even as you attempt to ignore and refuse to address the facts mentioned above.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 01-18-2020 at 08:17 PM.

  4. #4519
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    "But the young voters will save us," said every election loser ever. And yes, it's happened when you 'give them something to vote FOR'.

  5. #4520
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Recent polling also shows that Biden clearly has the support of the majority of black voters and that he's the best suited to beat Trump.

    Especially in critical swing states that will most likely determine the election.

    Your attempts at cherry-picking polls and creating false narratives are blatantly transparent.
    You can have the support of a majority while still having an obvious issue with a group outside of that majority.

    Ignoring those sorts of realities was already a part of how a Democratic Presidential Nominee lost an election once. I just don't think it makes much sense to buy into those same sorts of assumptions a second time.

    Even more so when we know that Trumps' numbers when it comes to said minority group aren't markedly different than 2016. There is no reason to assume that Trump and not work that needs to be done by Democrats will put them in a better position in the fall.

  6. #4521
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    You can have the support of a majority while still having an obvious issue with a group outside of that majority.
    And you can keep dodging the fact that Biden polls better than Sanders with both black voters and American voters in general, but it won't change said fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    Also, I would love to see evidence that a 1994 piece of legislation cost HRC votes. Sounds like convenient conjecture.
    Just like he conveniently ignores unprecedented Russian interference in the 2016 election and Comey's violation of FBI policy when he brought up Hillary's emails right before the election -- along with the fact that moderate Democrats (not "progressives") have won the vast majority of elections prior.

    He also brings up third party candidates like Perot when it's convenient while selectively ignoring candidates like Stein when it serves his purposes.

    The guy didn't even bother to vote in said election, so it's hard to take his "concern" seriously, regardless: trying to lecture people on how to beat Trump when you didn't even vote because your chosen candidate couldn't even get enough votes to make it out of the primaries to even challenge Trump is beyond ridiculous.

    At this point, we probably should all just be grateful that he's not still talking about Hillary's emails.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 01-18-2020 at 08:35 PM.

  7. #4522
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    And you can keep dodging the fact that Biden polls better than Sanders with both black voters and American voters in general, but it won't change said fact.
    Change "Biden..." to "HRC...", and you are describing what was the case when Trump won the Presidency.

    It would make sense to not assume that they exact same playbook will give you a different outcome in the fall.

  8. #4523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    "But the young voters will save us," said every election loser ever. And yes, it's happened when you 'give them something to vote FOR'.
    Young voters delivered the only election victories that the Democrats have had in this millennium, and seeing that Biden's campaign message of "I was Obama's sidekick" doesn't seem to be working with that constituency, his outlook appears grim.

  9. #4524
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Young voters delivered the only election victories that the Democrats have had in this millennium, and seeing that Biden's campaign message of "I was Obama's sidekick" doesn't seem to be working with that constituency, his outlook appears grim.
    They helped. They did not deliver it. And Obama was, well... Obama. Until young voters start /regularly/ showing up in elections, it's unwise to bet everything on them showing up, as has been shown over and over and over again.

  10. #4525
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post

    It would make sense to not assume that they exact same playbook will give you a different outcome in the fall.
    He said, practicing the exact same playbook he used in 2016 when his candidate couldn't even make it beyond the primaries.

  11. #4526
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    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/17/w...mir-camps.html



    NEW DELHI — India’s top military commander has created shock waves by suggesting that Kashmiris could be shipped off to “deradicalization camps,” which rights activists consider an alarming echo of what China has done to many of its Muslim citizens.
    It was far from clear what the military commander, Gen. Bipin Rawat, chief of India’s defense staff, meant when he made the public comments on Thursday or whether a plan was afoot to set up large-scale re-education camps in the part of the disputed Kashmir region that India controls.
    But rights activists and Kashmiri intellectuals were deeply unsettled, saying that the general’s words revealed how the highest levels of the Indian military viewed Kashmiri people and that his comments could presage another disturbing turn of events.
    “It’s shocking he would even suggest this,’’ said Siddiq Wahid, a Kashmiri historian who earned his Ph.D. from Harvard. “It reminds me of the Uighur camps in China. I don’t think the general realizes the insanity of what he is talking about.”
    Everything is perfectly fine. No need to worry about the rise of nationalism/fascism in India whatsoever.

  12. #4527
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    They helped. They did not deliver it. And Obama was, well... Obama. Until young voters start /regularly/ showing up in elections, it's unwise to bet everything on them showing up, as has been shown over and over and over again.
    Well if nominating a candidate that young voters can get excited about it worked the last time, maybe the Democrats should try it again. If Biden is the nominee, it's virtually guaranteed that most young voters will stay home and it's going to be pretty hard for him to win if that happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/17/w...mir-camps.html

    Everything is perfectly fine. No need to worry about the rise of nationalism/fascism in India whatsoever.
    Wishing for ethnic tensions to go away without addressing the deeply rooted structural issues that created them hasn't worked here, why the hell would anyone expect it to work in India?
    Last edited by PwrdOn; 01-18-2020 at 08:49 PM.

  13. #4528
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Well if nominating a candidate that young voters can get excited about it worked the last time, maybe the Democrats should try it again. If Biden is the nominee, it's virtually guaranteed that most young voters will stay home and it's going to be pretty hard for him to win if that happens.
    While I don't know that it's "Virtually Guaranteed...", I just can't see the whole "Nah, Everything's Gonna Work Out Just Fine..." take.

  14. #4529
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Well if nominating a candidate that young voters can get excited about it worked the last time, maybe the Democrats should try it again. If Biden is the nominee, it's virtually guaranteed that most young voters will stay home and it's going to be pretty hard for him to win if that happens.
    That's conjecture on your part -- it remains to be seen whether enough young voters will show up for Biden or Sanders to make any difference in the elections.

    With that in mind, if said young voters show up in the primaries and propel Sanders to the top of the ticket then he's the nominee regardless, so there's no point in arguing about it. So enough with the fearmongering -- just support your candidate and stop trying to demonize other candidates just because you prefer someone different. There is too much at stake to continually bash and attempt to drag down the Democrats statistical best chance at winning the next election.

    Half the reason many of these people don't show up is because of this defeatist narrative that somehow a "moderate" candidate is just as bad as Trump.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 01-18-2020 at 08:57 PM.

  15. #4530
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Wishing for ethnic tensions to go away without addressing the deeply rooted structural issues that created them hasn't worked here, why the hell would anyone expect it to work in India?
    Why am I not surprised you're handwaving away the likely path this is gonna follow and what it means? I mean, I'm fairly sure imprisoning people in 'reeducation camps' isn't going to end tensions, and if you're defending *that* practice as way towards addressing 'deeply rooted structural issues', I don't think we have much to say to one another.
    Last edited by Tendrin; 01-18-2020 at 08:59 PM.

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