All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[numberthirty]

No you're not -- stop lying. No one asked you to work it out "to the last penny."

I just asked you how he will pay for his program, how he will pass legislation in Congress and how many progressives win elections as opposed to moderates.

Just be honest and say you can't answer those questions and stop making up lies about those who asked the questions.

Which was a standard that no one was holding former President Obama to during his run.

It's not really much an issue to hold Sanders to a standard that former President Obama wasn't.

It's an issue when folks are trying to duck that it's what they are doing.

Never mind that Sanders has a plan for what is in blue.

It's not really worth breaking it down for folks who deny it exists.

[aja_christopher]

Which was a standard that no one was holding former President Obama to during his run.

Obama didn't make all of the promises Sanders has regarding Medicare for all and other programs so no one asked him to say how he would pay for them.

He ran as a moderate in that respect, not a progressive.

Try actually discussing your candidates policies without trying to bring up other candidates who aren't him.

[numberthirty]

Obama didn't make all of the promises Sanders has with regards to Medicare for all and other social programs so no one asked him to say how he would pay for them.

Try actually discussing your candidates policies without trying to bring up other candidates who aren't him.

I'm talking about double standards.

Which people seem fine with when it comes to Sanders.

[aja_christopher]

I'm talking about double standards.

Which people seem fine with when it comes to Sanders.

There is no double standard -- Obama did not make the same promises with regards to Medicare that Sanders made so it's not the same standard at all.

You just can't answer the questions, so you're deflecting to Obama.

Moreover, Obama was a moderate politician and had the overwhelming support of black voters.

Sanders has neither of those advantages.

[Theleviathan]

Can you prove this or do you only have anecdotal evidence? If the vast majority of Bernie supporters are not Bros, what this the point of talking about these supposed Bernie Bros? What is this supposed achieve? Is just to promote a massive generalization of movement due to a few bad actors?

You are being deliberately difficult is all I can conclude. Worse yet, you're not even consistent in your own ideas! You celebrated a post by Knight with significantly less examples, all of which were anecdotal. Your problem is that accepting what I'm saying means you have to say something negative about Sanders and that is, apparently, a line you aren't willing to cross.

I have, and will continue, to criticize all candidates consistently. I will also defend them consistently. You should try to do the same.

[The Overlord]

There is no double standard -- Obama did not make the same promises with regards to Medicare that Sanders made so it's not the same standard at all.

You just can't answer the questions, so you're deflecting to Obama.

Moreover, Obama was a moderate politician and had the overwhelming support of black voters.

Sanders has neither of those advantages.

But is Bernie's promise unrealistic if other countries have socialized medicine and spend less on health care than the US does? Why is that? Won't this save money in the long run?

You are being deliberately difficult is all I can conclude. Worse yet, you're not even consistent in your own ideas! You celebrated a post by Knight with significantly less examples, all of which were anecdotal. Your problem is that accepting what I'm saying means you have to say something negative about Sanders and that is, apparently, a line you aren't willing to cross.

I have, and will continue, to criticize all candidates consistently. I will also defend them consistently. You should try to do the same.

Except all this Bernie Bro stuff sounds like a nonsense sideshow than issue that is relevant to most voters.

It seems like making a mountain out of a molehill. How many voters think this is a relevant issue?

[aja_christopher]

But is Bernie's promise unrealistic if other countries have socialized medicine and spend less on health care than the US does? Why is that? Won't this save money in the long run?

I've never said his plans are unrealistic nor have I said they won't save money.

I just pointed out that Americans don't vote progressive candidates into the presidency just like they voted for Hillary over Sanders by four million votes last election. Again -- do some research instead of just arguing based on your personal perspective.

It has nothing to do with my opinion on the matter -- that's just how Americans vote.

The only way to disprove that is by voting and proving it wrong.

[numberthirty]

There is no double standard -- Obama did not make the same promises with regards to Medicare that Sanders made so it's not the same standard at all.

You just can't answer the questions, so you're deflecting to Obama.

Moreover, Obama was a moderate politician and had the overwhelming support of black voters.

Sanders has neither of those advantages.

Former President Obama made a bunch of pretty specific promises that we can easily prove didn't get kept.

If I know that, I know that it's hot garbage to start asking Sanders for specifics on how Sanders will get things done that former President Obama never had to come up with.

Again, obvious double standard.

I get the reasons for thinking that double standard is acceptable, but it doesn't do anything to change that it is a double standard.

[The Overlord]

I've never said his plans are unrealistic nor have I said they won't save money.

I just pointed out that Americans don't vote progressive candidates into the presidency just like they voted for Hillary over Sanders by four million votes last election.

And yet she did not beat Trump. I would buy these electability arguments better if Hillary had won.

I this issue is more popular than you think:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill...lth-care%3famp

[aja_christopher]

Former President Obama made a bunch of pretty specific promises that we can easily prove didn't get kept.

You can't even discuss Sanders without bringing up other candidates.

Obama is not Sanders -- he did not run as a progressive who would raise taxes and provide Medicare for all, so he wasn't treated as such.

He ran as a "centrist" who praised Reagan and supported corporate businesses -- Sanders isn't doing that.

It's useless to talk to you on this issue, so I'm done with it.

Again -- if Sanders loses because you can't even answer basic questions about his campaign, don't blame "Hillary" or the DNC.

Blame yourself and his supporters for never giving others any good reason to vote for him.

[aja_christopher]

And yet she did not beat Trump. I would buy these electability arguments better if Hillary had won.

I this issue is more popular than you think:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill...lth-care%3famp

Candidates don't always win elections, Sanders lost to Hillary, and popularity isn't votes.

Again -- it has nothing to do with what I think personally.

People just don't vote for these policies -- the only way to disprove that is with votes, not arguments on a message board.

Zin was right -- it's useless to discuss this with you.

[Steel Inquisitor]

You can't just say something unsubtantiated and then when people ask you to prove it say "no you can't prove it, it's just a fact we have to take at face value, and it's an ugly truth".

Let's by quantifiable things.

1. When Bernie announced there were a bunch of moderate Dems who got #NeverBernie trending
2. On this thread, Bernie supporters are the minority. With that said, I can flatout say that some of the most prominent regular posters have made unsolicited attacks against Bernie and many of them were demonstrably untrue. Are you going to just deny that or are you going to ask for evidence (I don't like naming names, but I can list examples)
3. The last Presidential canidate struggled to say they would support Bernie when Bernie stumped for her and flew all over the country.
4. That same nominee who represented that wing of the party failed to get their supporters to fall in line after a failed primary the same way Bernie did for her.
5. As soon as Bernie started doing well in 2016, his supporters got labled Bernie bros. When women were supporting Bernie a popular narrative the other side floated was "girls are just going where all the boys are. Bernie was also critcizied as being bad for minorities but then people outright ignore the tremendous support he enjoys with minority youth and all the endorsements he has there. So in summation the other side effectively calls his camp mysognists, but then says the girls who support him are effectively chasing dick, then they say he is racially problematic, but they complete dismiss the millions of minorities who support him (including some of the most notable in the government and the most notable activists). I find that deeply toxic and problematic.
6. As soon as Bernie started doing well in 2020, all of a sudden he was hit with attacks and all these articles popped up about who supports him. So whose really causing the division? Because it's no secret that as soon as the polls shifted, the people on here who you could tell didn't like him, started posting at a much greater frequency and this thread has been non stop at it the last few weeks.

1. Due to his campaign's actions in '16 why would everyone welcome him with open arms? Bernie must earn for voters support, he's not entitle to it by jumping into another election.
2. It's alarming how Bernie supporters who have attacked others and not argued fairly are being dismissed in your response and how many posters who aren't on Team Bernie have been more than polite in their discussions to be met with attacks. Hillary didn't have any of these people on her staff, either, but Bernie does and he keeps rehiring them.
3. Hillary never said she wouldn't support Sanders as the presidential nominee.
4. I don't dispute that fact, however, she didn't have to rally any of her supporters to back off from national headlines where official Democratic staffers and politician were being openly harassed and threatened. Hillary made dumb decisions she shouldn't have made in '08, which were controversial, Sanders shunt get a pass for that kind of behaviour when he or his campaign does it.
5. Wrong. Bernie Bros didn't come out of nowhere out of jealousy, it was created by rogue Bernie supporters who went over the line in harassing Democratic officials and the toxic atmosphere of that legacy has stuck to Bernie's campaign since when supporters continue to maintain controversial sexist behaviour.

https://www.salon.com/2016/05/17/ber...ling_campaign/

It's disingenuous to suggest Bernie's never had troubles with sexism or racism in his campaigns or appealing to minorities. It wants a contest in '16 with Hillary over this, she flat out dominated him on this. There are more voting blocs in American then the youth, which are a notoriously unreliable voting bloc, as we saw in '16 primaries. Hillary beat Sanders by millions of votes. Conflating acknowledging the "Bernie Bros" with dismissing the female and minority supporters in his base is moving goal posts. Their presence isn't going to evaporate by admitting the Bernie Bros are a problem for his base, this line of attack dismisses the damage the Bros have caused and it's distasteful they're used as a shield to protect Sanders campaign when they and their supporters get out of line.

It's true that every politician, from Obama to Hillary, have toxic followers but they've never caused destruction to the party on this scale and they disappeared right after their candidate lost, not so with the Bros. It's alive and well.

6. That's what happens to front runners, it's a natural part of the primaries process. Something Bernie's campaign has done themselves. Bernie supporters struggling with this aren't going to ready for the general against Trump, this is the easy stage. Trump and the Republicans aren't going told back like we are.

So yeah I would say there is plenty of evidence to say your side is far more problematic and toxic based in how things are happening and in practice and in some cases there are complete measurables in circumstance and timing to support it. Why don't you ever acknowledge any of that?

Are there problematic Bernie supporters? Sure. You're talking about millions of people. Are they the big problem plaguing the party and causing division. I can't say that.

You haven't supplied any evidence.

Some are on Sanders' campaign as we speak, like Sirota.

[numberthirty]

You can't even discuss Sanders without bringing up other candidates.

Obama is not Sanders -- he did not run as a progressive who would raise taxes and provide Medicare for all, so he wasn't treated as such.

He ran as a "centrist" who praised Reagan and supported corporate businesses -- Sanders isn't doing that.

It's useless to talk to you on this issue, so I'm done with it.

Again -- if Sanders loses because you can't even answer basic questions about his campaign, don't blame "Hillary" or the DNC.

Blame yourself and his supporters for never giving others any good reason to vote for him.

Another obvious double standard...

Sanders is the only candidate who should be trying to get a "Vote For..." out of the public.

[Tami]

But is Bernie's promise unrealistic if other countries have socialized medicine and spend less on health care than the US does? Why is that? Won't this save money in the long run?

Did a quick look up

Europe’s health systems on life support

Socialized medicine was coined in the US, not Europe

Column: Across the world, universal healthcare is in poor health

How does the quality of the U.S. healthcare system compare to other countries?

Arguing for Universal HealtH Coverage - World Health Organization

Universal Health Care in Different Countries, Pros and Cons of Each

Would ‘Medicare for All’ Save Billions or Cost Billions?


My opinion, you need a team of experts to analyze options before moving forward with any type of Universal Health Care. The answer to your question may be too complicated, and I doubt that Sanders has spent enough time talking to experts to get a read on how his idea would work in the US.

The US is far more complex than most other countries, perhaps with the exception of the UK and Canada (though they both seemed to have managed it). It's a One Size doesn't fit all situation. Not that the US can't have a Universal Health Care system, only that finding the right path towards it may take many people working many hours to figure out.

[aja_christopher]

Another obvious double standard...

Sanders is the only candidate who should be trying to get a "Vote For..." out of the public.

I'm going to be blunt, Thirty -- you already started this conversation by lying and claiming people wanted you to get everything down "to the last penny".

And there's no point in arguing with a liar.