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  1. #7156

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    You backed Biden. He turned out to be a loser. Move on.

  2. #7157
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    He didn't "inspire" that many voters to show up for him last time around -- not even enough to win the primary.

    And Iowa didn't have any overwhelming show of support either, from what I've read.

    All of this talk of "inspiration" means nothing if you don't have the votes -- and winning record -- to back it up.

    Progressive idealism is a great principle, but there's no proof that it wins national elections in America, much less works in practice.

    I'll repeat my earlier point -- if you want to "inspire" the base of the Democratic party, you need to motivate African-American and other minority voters to get out to vote, since they are the most likely to vote Democratic if they show up at the voting booth.
    So who does the have the best chance of doing just that?

    If its Biden, why did he place fourth in Iowa?

    You always seem to say that its Bernie supporters ''job'' (a job which we do not get paid for, so its volunteer work I guess, which is not a job) to explain why Bernie is the best choice, but what's your job here? To sit on the sidelines and make snarky comments about Bernie Bros and then bemoan the vileness of Trump without articulating who has the best chance of beating him and why? Because that seems like something that is easy and beating Trump will take more hard work than that.

    If Bernie is not the best choice to beat Trump, who is and why? If you can't answer that question, what are you doing? Shouldn't you have an argument on who is the best choice to defeat Trump and explain why, if you actually want to defeat him? All the candidates are not Trump, so you need more than that to appeal to others.

    For all these comments about Bernie's supposed sexism and racism (is there is any of proof of this beyond hearsay and guilt by association?) is Biden's record towards the African American community that great?

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...cratic-primary

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-incarceration
    Last edited by The Overlord; 02-07-2020 at 05:54 PM.

  3. #7158
    Invincible Jersey Ninja Tami's Avatar
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    if Iowa and New Hampshire were the be all and end all of the Democratic Primaries, then why bother voting if you are from every other state?

    I still haven't made up my mind, and I still don't see a true front-runner.

    I'm happy to wait and see what happens by Spring.

    It ain't over til the Fat Lady votes in June.
    Original join date: 11/23/2004
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  4. #7159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tami View Post
    if Iowa and New Hampshire were the be all and end all of the Democratic Primaries, then why bother voting if you are from every other state?

    I still haven't made up my mind, and I still don't see a true front-runner.

    I'm happy to wait and see what happens by Spring.

    It ain't over til the Fat Lady votes in June.
    No one said otherwise, but if electability is Biden's argument, shouldn't he have done somewhat better in Iowa?

    What makes Biden the most electable?

  5. #7160
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    This should be headlines everywhere.

    He is just beginning his revenge tour.
    Got an alert that EU Ambassador Gordon Sondland had been recalled. Like Alexander Vindman, he gave damaging testimony against Trump. Looks like the revenge tour is underway.
    Avatar: Here's to the late, great Steve Dillon. Best. Punisher. Artist. EVER!

  6. #7161
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    You backed Biden. He turned out to be a loser. Move on.
    When it comes to Biden, I just don't have a lot of use for the "What Has Sanders Won?" if folks are not following that up by asking themselves...

    - Has Biden Ever Even Been Competitive In The Democratic Party Nomination Process?

    - When Was The Last Time Biden Won An Election Strictly Under His Own Steam?

  7. #7162
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    No one said otherwise, but if electability is Biden's argument, shouldn't he have done somewhat better in Iowa?

    What makes Biden the most electable?

    On that...

    My main issue is that a lot of people are already talking about the numbers Biden would have in a General.

    Do they have a fire alarm to pull if he face plants during the Primary?

  8. #7163
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    When it comes to Biden, I just don't have a lot of use for the "What Has Sanders Won?" if folks are not following that up by asking themselves...

    - Has Biden Ever Even Been Competitive In The Democratic Party Nomination Process?

    - When Was The Last Time Biden Won An Election Strictly Under His Own Steam?
    Didn't Biden lose massively in the 1988 Democratic primary? How is he the most electable again? This most electable argument comes across as the ultimate paper tiger.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/plag...un-1988-2019-3

  9. #7164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    You backed Biden. He turned out to be a loser. Move on.
    Guy -- you really need to chill out and stop lying and intentionally trying to aggravate people.

    I don't back Biden -- I'm just pointing out the obvious fact that if you don't give black voters a candidate to back in the general election, the Democratic party is most likely going to lose.

    Sanders is who turned out to be a "loser" last time around -- mainly because he didn't "inspire" black voters -- yet Sanders' supporters refuse to even address that, for obvious reasons.

    Just because you refuse to address those weaknesses -- and who the Democratic party really needs to win elections -- doesn't change the facts.

    Again -- back off and stop lying on people and trying to start fights, or at the very least address the points raised in your response.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 02-07-2020 at 06:21 PM.

  10. #7165
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    Guy -- you really need to chill out and stop lying and intentionally trying to aggravate people.

    I don't back Biden -- I'm just pointing out that if you don't give black voters a candidate to back in the general election, the Democratic party is most likely going to lose.

    Sanders is who turned out to be a "loser" last time around, yet you don't address that at all.

    Again -- back off and stop lying on people.
    And how is Biden not a loser?

    https://www.businessinsider.com/plag...un-1988-2019-3

  11. #7166
    Mighty Member Zauriel's Avatar
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    Even the vice-president status can't save Biden. Maybe he will withdraw from the race after South Carolina primary.

  12. #7167
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    I never said anything about Biden not losing -- I pointed out that Sanders lost, or rather Hillary won, due to Sanders' lack of African-American support.

    Talking about Biden -- and every other candidate you want to attack -- does not address that basic fact about Sanders' campaign and why he lost in 2016.

    Nor how he will motivate African-American voters to show up for him in a general election.

  13. #7168
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    Because not all the voters will be like the people here who despise Trump and want to do everything to get him out of office, for a lot of voters you will have to make the case that the alternative is better than Trump, so whether its Biden, Bernie, Warren, Mayor Pete, etc not being Trump is not enough of a sales pitch, you tell people why their lives will be better if they chose one of the Dem nominees's over Trump.

    So who has the best case? I think Sanders and then Warren can counter a lot of his points, but really what case has Mayor Pete or Biden made, besides not being Trump? Not being Trump is not enough of a case for those who are not emotionally invested in seeing Trump lose, you need a stronger case for the voters in between the Trump's base and those who rightly despise Trump.
    The case Buttigieg or Biden has is more pull in swing states and to swing voters. It's what Buttigieg said in his victory speech.

    Like all strengths and weaknesses for each candidate, the primaries are our testing grounds. So far Biden is failing, Sanders is steady, and Buttigieg is surging. But that could all change in a night.

  14. #7169
    Mighty Member Zauriel's Avatar
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    Mike Bloomberg won the Iowa caucuses

    When Mike Blloomberg was mayor of NYC, he ran as a Republican. This is the guy who banned sodas and guns in the NYC. He needs more things to sell to the voters than his gun control stance.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Bloomberg

  15. #7170
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    I never said anything about Biden not losing -- I pointed out that Sanders lost, or rather Hillary won, due to Sanders' lack of African-American support.

    Talking about Biden -- and every other candidate you want to attack -- does not address that basic fact about Sanders' campaign and why he lost in 2016.

    Nor how he will motivate African-American voters to show up for him in a general election.
    Except you seem to be unwilling to take an actual stand on who is the best choice to run against Trump and why? Sitting on the sidelines and just criticizing is easy, actually defending something concrete requires real hard work.

    If you do not Bernie is the best choice, then explain who would be better and why. I can at least why some people would like Warren as the best choice (still not my first choice, but certainly would be my question), but I have not heard why a concrete argument on why Biden or Mayor Pete would be the best choice.

    If Third Way politics has not failed, why did it fail to prevent Trumpism?

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