All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[Superbat]

So who does the have the best chance of doing just that?

If its Biden, why did he place fourth in Iowa?

You always seem to say that its Bernie supporters ''job'' (a job which we do not get paid for, so its volunteer work I guess, which is not a job) to explain why Bernie is the best choice, but what's your job here? To sit on the sidelines and make snarky comments about Bernie Bros and then bemoan the vileness of Trump without articulating who has the best chance of beating him and why? Because that seems like something that is easy and beating Trump will take more hard work than that.

If Bernie is not the best choice to beat Trump, who is and why? If you can't answer that question, what are you doing? Shouldn't you have an argument on who is the best choice to defeat Trump and explain why, if you actually want to defeat him? All the candidates are not Trump, so you need more than that to appeal to others.

For all these comments about Bernie's supposed sexism and racism (is there is any of proof of this beyond hearsay and guilt by association?) is Biden's record towards the African American community that great?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...cratic-primary

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-incarceration

It's obvious to everyone who isn't already anti-Bernie. It's the "just asking questions" tactic used against Bernie.

You know it's disingenuous when the same people throw shade at Bernie for lacking African-American support but don't say a word about him having higher support from that community than Warren or Buttigieg. Pete has 0% but those people don't ask how he's going to win the general.

After the Joe Rogan endorsement. People insisted they would have gone after any other candidate just as hard. I posted a link showing Pete tweeting out a video of him being praised by a rapist that made comments similar to Rogan and not a single one of those people said a word about it.

[aja_christopher]

Except you seem to be unwilling to take an actual stand on who is the best choice to run against Trump and why?

I don't need to "take a stand" and tell you anything but the obvious.

If you don't want to listen, that's your business -- your candidate is going to have to address it, regardless.

As for Trump winning -- again -- political parties lose elections. It happens.

Often they even lose two in a row due to re-election (Reagan, Clinton, Bush Jr, Obama, possibly Trump).

If people have to explain the basics of our political system to you, then maybe you shouldn't be trying to argue with those who know more than you do.

Like in pointing out that without African-American support, Democratic candidates -- like Sanders -- do not win primaries or national elections.

[Zauriel]

The case Buttigieg or Biden has is more pull in swing states and to swing voters. It's what Buttigieg said in his victory speech.

Like all strengths and weaknesses for each candidate, the primaries are our testing grounds. So far Biden is failing, Sanders is steady, and Buttigieg is surging. But that could all change in a night.

Buttigieg is from Indiana, a red state that has not voted for a democrat in the presidential elections since Obama in 2008. Bill Clinton never won Indiana. Nor Jimmy Carter. The last time a Democratic nominee has won Indiana before Obama was LBJ in 1964.

Maybe Indiana will vote for Mayor Pete

[The Overlord]

The case Buttigieg or Biden has is more pull in swing states and to swing voters. It's what Buttigieg said in his victory speech.

Like all strengths and weaknesses for each candidate, the primaries are our testing grounds. So far Biden is failing, Sanders is steady, and Buttigieg is surging. But that could all change in a night.

But what is the argument for Biden or Buttigieg being the best choices to get swing voters, what would they have over Bernie or Warren in this regard?

Clinton did not win the swing states in 2016 and even lost certain Democratic strongholds, what will Buttigieg or Biden do to prevent that from happening this time? Do have any details to back up this claim that Biden or Buttigieg can bring in more swing voters than Sanders or Warren?

[numberthirty]

I never said anything about Biden not losing -- I pointed out that Sanders lost, or rather Hillary won, due to Sanders' lack of African-American support.

Talking about Biden -- and every other candidate you want to attack -- does not address that basic fact about Sanders' campaign and why he lost in 2016.

Nor how he will motivate African-American voters to show up for him in a general election.

Actually being honest about when the last time Biden won anything under his own steam is not an "Attack..."

It is the reason you are arguing that Sanders is an issue.

If you are going to say that Sanders record of winning is an issue while insisting on ignoring the same potential issue for every other candidate, than you're not really talking about winning and losing.

[The Overlord]

I don't need to "take a stand" and tell you anything but the obvious.

If you don't want to listen -- that's your business.

Your candidate is going to have to address it, regardless.

As for Trump winning -- again -- political parties lose elections. It happens.

Often they even lose two in a row due to re-election (Reagan, Clinton, Bush Jr, Obama, possibly Trump).

Here's the thing, if people have to explain the basics of our political system to you, then maybe you shouldn't be trying to argue with those who know more than you do.

Like in pointing out that without African-American support, Democratic candidates do not win national elections.

So if my supposed job is to defend Bernie Sanders from your criticisms, what is your job exactly? Unless you are paying me, this not job and its not fair to ask things of others you seem unwilling to do yourself, it comes as bad faith to expect others to do the work and the research, while you just sit on the sidelines and doing no real work in terms of furthering a coherent vision of defeating both Trump and Trumpism, because defeating Trump without defeating Trumpism is just leaving the job half done.

I am not talking job where I have to do all the real work and you do not have to do anything, that is a fair job and I refuse to take it.

[Zauriel]

But what is the argument for Biden or Buttigieg being the best choices to get swing voters, what would they have over Bernie or Warren in this regard?

Clinton did not win the swing states in 2016 and even lost certain Democratic strongholds, what will Buttigieg or Biden do to prevent that from happening this time? Do have any details to back up this claim that Biden or Buttigieg can bring in more swing voters than Sanders or Warren?

How do you win the swing states this year? The answer: Try to woo the moderate voters. Liberals are, like, an one-third of the population. Whoever wins the nomination had better pay attention to the moderate voters. Sanders and Warren are too liberal for the moderates, while Biden is a centrist.

[Mister Mets]

As a reminder that polls are often used to signal broad support or opposition rather than an actual opinion on the merits of a specific question, 64% of Democrats in New Hampshire have answered that rather than have Trump be reelected, they would prefer a meteor wipe out all mankind.

https://consequenceofsound.net/2020/...teor-to-trump/

https://www.uml.edu/docs/TOPLINE%20-...m18-321680.pdf

[aja_christopher]

If you are going to say that Sanders record of winning is an issue while insisting on ignoring the same potential issue for every other candidate, than you're not really talking about winning and losing.

I never said anything about other candidates not losing -- I said that Sanders can't win without African American support in the primaries or the general election, something you refuse to address directly.

Of course Biden has his issues, but that's an entirely different subject and no one here is trying to pretend Biden doesn't have any weaknesses -- those weaknesses don't lie with African-American voters, though, which are the key to winning the general election. That's one of Sanders' main weaknesses, however, and ignoring it doesn't do him or the Democratic party any favors.

It's obvious you're going to do everything possible to dodge this fact, so I'm not going to bother repeating it.

You know exactly what I'm saying -- you just don't want to talk about it, but that won't make it go away.

[The Overlord]

How do you win the swing states this year? The answer: Try to woo the moderate voters. Liberals are, like, an one-third of the population. Whoever wins the nomination had better pay attention to the moderate voters. Sanders and Warren are too liberal for the moderates, while Biden is a centrist.

Perhaps, but that was argument Hillary made against Sanders in 2016 and it did not work. I think its fair to ask what is different this time, rather than take it as an article of faith that this time will be different.

[aja_christopher]

So if my supposed job is to defend Bernie Sanders from your criticisms.

It's not.

Stop acting as if it is and it will improve this discussion immensely.

I've already given my advice -- stick with a moderate because they win more national elections than progressives (like Bernie) who don't usually win, if at all in the modern era, and make sure the Democrats nominate a candidate who black (and brown and LGBT and other minority) voters can support if you want enough of them to show up election day and vote to get Trump out of office.

[numberthirty]

I never said anything about other candidates not losing -- I said that Sanders can't win without African American support in the primaries or the general election, something you refuse to address directly.

Of course Biden has his issues, but that's an entirely different subject and no one here is trying to pretend Biden doesn't have any weaknesses -- those weaknesses don't like with African-American voters, though, which are the key to winning the general election.

It's obvious you're going to do everything possible to dodge this fact, so I'm not going to bother repeating it.

You know exactly what I'm saying -- you just don't want to talk about it, but that won't make it go away.

Not any more than focusing on Biden possibly being able to have a better shot in a General will make the fact that he has to win a Primary to get to a General go away.

All of the focus in the world being placed on Sanders will do right around "Nothing..." to change that.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

This debate is so much better than the 100 person debate

[The Overlord]

It's not.

Stop acting as if it is and it will improve this discussion immensely.

You said that was my job in previous posts. Nothing is my job here, because I am not getting paid here, I can choose to explain why I think Bernie is the best choice and you can choose to accept or reject my arguments, if you want to make good faith arguments to counter mime, you are welcome to it.

I think your criticism would seem more valid if it was actually constructive.

If you want constructive criticism of Biden or Buttigieg, I got some easy answers: actually stand for a coherent vision to address the problems that created Trumpism in the first place, if they did that, rather than Biden talking about Trump being an ''aberration'' (I think that idea is painfully naive) I could actually see where they are coming from. Assume I was a rust belt worker who voted for Obama in 2012 and voted for Trump in 2016, because I liked the idea of Trump getting a better deal for American workers than what NAFTA did, what is your argument to that person to vote for Biden or Buttigieg over Trump? Because at least I would know what Sanders or Warren would argue.

Business as usual model from the 1990s has failed, anyone unwilling to address them will be doomed to repeat them.

[aja_christopher]

You said that was my job in previous posts.

It's not your job and ultimately, it doesn't really serve any purpose to discuss this with you given your lack of understanding regarding basic politics.

If you think Sanders can win and lead a revolution, then whatever works for you -- I won't believe it until I see the votes and the legislation.

Not any more than focusing on Biden possibly being able to have a better shot in a General will make the fact that he has to win a Primary to get to a General go away.

All of the focus in the world being placed on Sanders will do right around "Nothing..." to change that.

Biden might not have a better shot at anything whatsoever -- that has nothing to do with my criticism of Sanders.

Namely, that without African-American support, Sanders most likely will not win a general election.

It's useless to discuss this with you or any Sanders' supporters -- the more people try to reason with you, the more selectively ignorant you get.