All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[numberthirty]

Perhaps, but that was argument Hillary made against Sanders in 2016 and it did not work. I think its fair to ask what is different this time, rather than take it as an article of faith that this time will be different.

It also presupposes that Biden will be on the ticket to make a "Centrist" pitch to those voters?

What, exactly, is the plan if that reality does not come to pass?

Is there anything like a backup plan to address that potential reality?

[GindyPosts]

I still don't understand why so many people need to "feel inspired" to simply do their civic duty. When I was a kid, I went with my parents when they voted every year. Not just for Presidential elections, EVERY YEAR! My parents made clear to me that voting is a responsibility as well as a right. Don't abdicate that responsibility just because no candidate has "inspired" or "excited" you.

People are weird, mate.

Besides... apparently, you become deeply cynical since Prell never went back to the old glass bottle.

[numberthirty]

This debate is so much better than the 100 person debate

Would it kill they to call on Steyer every once in a while?

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Would it kill they to call on Steyer every once in a while?

Honestly I hate a billionaire buying his way on the stage, but every time he opens his mouth I like what I hear. If nothing else he can box Bloomberg out.

By the Biden walked into a trap.

“I trusted George Bush”

“I thought they were lying through their teeth”.

Anyone could see that coming.

[numberthirty]

Honestly I hate a billionaire buying his way on the stage, but every time he opens his mouth I like what I hear. If nothing else he can box Bloomberg out.

By the Biden walked into a trap.

“I trusted George Bush”

“I thought they were lying through their teeth”.

Anyone could see that coming.

Well, almost anyone.

As for Steyer, yeah...

If it's going to be that, the guy is seemingly one of the best versions of it.

[The Overlord]

It's not your literal job and honestly, it doesn't really serve any purpose to discuss this with you given your lack of any basic understanding of politics.

If you think Sanders can win and lead a revolution, fine -- I won't believe it until I see the votes and the legislation.



Biden might not have a better shot at anything whatsoever -- that has nothing to do with my criticism of Sanders.

Namely, that without African-American support, Sanders most likely will not win a general election.

It's useless to discuss this with you or any Sanders' supporters -- the more people try to reason with you, the more selectively ignorant you get.

If you think Sanders is a bad choice, that is your opinion, but you do not seem to have any good arguments who is a better alternative and why, if your understanding of politics is so superior to mine, surely you make a coherent argument regarding an alternative vision? Its pretty easy to say for you say that you supposed superior grasp on politics than me, when you do not bother to present anything of substance in terms of actual policy and just stand on the sidelines and criticize others, having others do the work while you have to do nothing, does not show a superior grasp in politics, it's just you taking the easy path here.

For your talk about ''superior grasp in politics,'' you do not seem to actually discuss substantive matters, its very surface value. You keep on saying Bernie is a loser for not beating Hilliary in the primary, when I brought up Biden losing badly in 1988 primary, you seem to pay that little mind. What is the difference between Biden losing in 1988 and Bernie failing to defeat Clinton in 2016?

You complained that Bernie did not have a plan to pay for his expanded Medicare plan, but you seemed to ignore the fact that other western counties spend far less of their GDP on health care than the US and thus the US may save money over time, by switching over. How is the current system paying for itself and not a huge drain on resources?

If your grasp of politics is superior to mine, then you could come with some counter-arguments that are not completely surface level.

It's hard to respect your arguments when you seem unwilling to present any vision beyond ''Not Trump'', not did work last time and doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is not rational, what is different this time? What does Biden or Buttigieg bring to the table that Clinton failed to bring and if you going to say ''stop relegating the 2016 election''' that makes it look like you want to learn nothing from the past and those who do not learn from mistakes, are doomed to repeat them.

[aja_christopher]

If you think Sanders is a bad choice, that is your opinion, but you do not seem to have any good arguments who is a better alternative and why

I've already explained -- repeatedly -- who would be a better candidate (any moderate who has African-American support) and why (progressives don't win national elections).

Obama and Bill Clinton both were moderate Democrats who had very high support among African-American voters and they won both election and re-election.

There have been no progressives like Sanders who have won -- just like there have been no Democrats who have won without African-American support -- in recent history.

That about sums it up -- it could be Bloomberg, Biden, or any other moderate who has higher African-American support than Sanders.

There's nothing to argue about in that respect -- you see things differently with regards to "progressive" politics and my opinion won't change until I see the votes that back up your argument.

[The Overlord]

I've already explained -- repeatedly -- who would be a better candidate (any moderate who has African-American support) and why (progressives don't win national elections).

Obama and Bill Clinton both were moderate Democrats who had very high support among African-American voters and they won both election and re-election.

There have been on progressives like Sanders who have won -- just like there have been no Democrats who have won without African-American support -- in recent history.

That about sums it up.

There's nothing to argue about in that respect -- you see things differently and my opinion won't change until I see the votes to back it up.

What evidence do you have that will work for Biden or Buttigieg this time? Clearly this does not work all the time if it did Clinton would have won in 2016, Kerry would have won in 2004, etc. If the stakes are this important, shouldn't have a better strategy than something that has proven itself far from foolproof? It seems like you taking a leap of faith here. What evidence is there that African Americans will flock to the polls if Biden or Buttigieg was the nominee over Bernie or Warren?

Also when is the last time the Dems run a progressive for President?

[DrNewGod]

Holy God! Listen to yourselves!

We are not debating substance. We are not offering solutions. We are just tearing at one another.

Keep this up and Progressives will be having another hand-wringing pity-party in mid-November.

[The Overlord]

Holy God! Listen to yourselves!

We are not debating substance. We are not offering solutions. We are just tearing at one another.

Keep this up and Progressives will be having another hand-wringing pity-party in mid-November.

Look if you want some easy posts bashing the GOP or Trump, that everyone can agree on, we can just do that, but that is not a strategy to win, clearly people where have different ideas on how to win and what is the best path forward and if we don't debate them and just say everything will just fine like we did last time, we could be in a for a rude shock again.

The problem I see is Third Way ideology has failed to stop something like Trumpism and if we do not address that fact, will we facing Trump Jr. in 2024 and Trumpism will part of the system until it is changed. Defeating Trump should be the first goal, but not the final goal, the final goal should be defeating Trumpism itself and what the dDemocrats have done since the 1990s has failed to counter the rise of Trumpism.

[aja_christopher]

Also when is the last time the Dems run a progressive for President?

Last time -- when Sanders couldn't make it out of the primaries due to lack of support from African-American voters.

[Superbat]

That about sums it up -- it could be Bloomberg, Biden, or any other moderate who has higher African-American support than Sanders.

There is no other moderate with more African-American support than Bernie.

Biden is 1st and Sanders is 2nd.

MAJORITY OF BLACK VOTERS SAY THEY COULD VOTE FOR BERNIE SANDERS IN THE 2020 ELECTION

https://www.newsweek.com/majority-bl...ection-1482343

"The Vice News/Ipsos Poll found that 56 percent of African American voters said that they would possibly vote for Sanders, a statistical tie with the 54 percent who said they might vote for former Vice President Joe Biden, who has been topping the polls for the Democratic Party's presidential nomination. The poll was conducted between January 8 and January 10 among 2,013 U.S. adults

The poll also found that Sanders had an even wider lead over Biden among Hispanic Americans. When asked whom they would consider voting for in the election, 47 percent of Hispanic respondents said they might back Sanders, while 37 percent said the same for Biden."

[The Overlord]

Last time -- when Sanders couldn't make it out of the primaries due to lack of support from African-American voters.

I meant in the General, against the Republican candidate, when is the last time that was done?

[aja_christopher]

I meant in the General, against the Republican candidate, when is the last time that was done?

What you seem to fail to understand is that they run all the time and -- like Sanders -- they fail to even make it out of the primaries into the general.

I don't have time to explain this to you -- let's agree to disagree until you learn to do your own research.

[Theleviathan]

But what is the argument for Biden or Buttigieg being the best choices to get swing voters, what would they have over Bernie or Warren in this regard?

Clinton did not win the swing states in 2016 and even lost certain Democratic strongholds, what will Buttigieg or Biden do to prevent that from happening this time? Do have any details to back up this claim that Biden or Buttigieg can bring in more swing voters than Sanders or Warren?

Hillary was very close in several swing states and won all of those states head to head with Bernie. Prior to Iowa Biden's polling in those places was much stronger.

The reasoning should be obvious. These are swing voters precisely because their politics are nowhere near the fringes. So ideas further toward the fringes are highly likely (though not certain) to scare them off.

If Bernie wins the nomination its hard to see him winning over those swing voters. As of now he is banking on new voters and enthusiasm to fill that gap.

I have my doubts but he has time to prove he can do it if he wins.