All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[Theleviathan]

This is a whole bunch of projection. I didn't try to silence you. How could I actually do so? You're still here, still posting. I told you cancel culture isn't as real as you think it is, nor is it something to be so up in arms about as you are, and you have now spent a great number of posts demanding that I change my 'tactics' to suit you. Most of the people who've been 'cancelled' are still out there, meeting plenty of success and getting Netflix specials, amongst other things.

If you think me brazenly calling Bill Maher a racist transphobe for chortling along with racists and nodding in agreement while calling people who abuse them 'reasonable' and then proceeding to try to take the credit for their down fall thereafter, is going to 'elect Republicans', I think you're patently ridiculous.

Remember, it's always people who call attention to these things that are problematic if they're too brazen, never the racist transphobes on your TV and the media infrastructure that keeps them there.

I appreciate your last sentence, let me get to that after just a couple points: I'm not demanding, I'm encouraging. I will continue to encourage those on left to reconsider this tact, support for it, is dismissal of it's consequences. I do think attacking and berating those we disagree with has political fallout. It may not specifically on Maher, but it does generally.

I think if someone is silenced for being angry it's an apt time to call out "tone police" and I am in lockstep agreement with you that it's wrong to silence those people. There is a time to vent and rage, but I hope you agree there is also a time to persuade and educate. I fear the latter is being reduced in importance.

[babyblob]

The Problem in the modern politics that we are in is that it is too hard to find a true ally. We are so divided as a county that we will vote for our party even if we dont fully agree with everything the candidate says just so the other party doesnt win. There are Republicans myself included that dont like Trump. Yet in local elections for Senate and the House they vote for people who support Trump just so the dems dont win. I am trying to escape this by researching more Dems and third party candidates. The same thing happened in 2016. Clinton was a very flawed candidate but people voted for her so Trump wouldnt get in. I dont know how many but I am sure there are a few who fell into that camp.

It seems to be like you are giving up a little bit of your principals so the other guy doesnt win. I am not accusing anyone here of that. I dont follow this thread enough to know where everyone stands. But overall in general that is how it seems to me with the general public and with the people we voted for.

[Theleviathan]

The Problem in the modern politics that we are in is that it is too hard to find a true ally. We are so divided as a county that we will vote for our party even if we dont fully agree with everything the candidate says just so the other party doesnt win. There are Republicans myself included that dont like Trump. Yet in local elections for Senate and the House they vote for people who support Trump just so the dems dont win. I am trying to escape this by researching more Dems and third party candidates. The same thing happened in 2016. Clinton was a very flawed candidate but people voted for her so Trump wouldnt get in. I dont know how many but I am sure there are a few who fell into that camp.

It seems to be like you are giving up a little bit of your principals so the other guy doesnt win. I am not accusing anyone here of that. I dont follow this thread enough to know where everyone stands. But overall in general that is how it seems to me with the general public and with the people we voted for.

I'm guilty of that. I've just accepted it will always be that way. I have to balance the available options and which puts us on a better path forward. In some cases, the choice is simply "this asshole cannot be elected" so I vote the other way.

It's not ideal....but, as they say, Democracy is the worst form of government except all the other ones.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

It is a call for better strategy. Speaking reality is not a threat, it is reality. If you want to change reality you should wake up to it. Your reality is that you are so far to the fringe and so unwilling to work towards changing minds rather than stumping your opinions that you'll likely always stay there. Doomed to see your ideas defeated or postponed time and time again. You might be ok with that but I'm not. There are real people who suffer real consequences while you sit on your ideological throne of purity. I work with those people every day and want to see the world changed to be better for them. If you can't help, kindly stop making it worse.

So I'm sorry you disagree with my suggestion, but it'd be best if you didn't warp what I'm saying into a strawman and then berate me with it. I'll remain your ally despite that, but not everyone will.

Then spend your time trying to convince people like that, instead of people like me.

I am never going to side with the right-wing. I am never going to side against the oppressed, no matter how people personally treat me. If you know people that might vote Republican because mean things were said to them by people on the left, then talk to them. They are the threat, not us.

I am not going to walk on eggshells and tone down my criticism because some people care more about their own feelings than the oppression of others.

[Theleviathan]

Then spend your time trying to convince people like that, instead of people like me.

I am never going to side with the right-wing. I am never going to side against the oppressed, no matter how people personally treat me. If you know people that might vote Republican because mean things were said to them by people on the left, then talk to them. They are the threat, not us.

I am not going to walk on eggshells and tone down my criticism because some people care more about their own feelings than the oppression of others.

I certainly do. But, I think you missed your role in making that harder. I didn't have high hopes, but maybe you'll consider it again another time.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

I certainly do. But, I think you missed your role in making that harder. I didn't have high hopes, but maybe you'll consider it again another time.

Then you work even harder.

You do things your way, and I'll do things my way.

Here's some advice though, when those people tell you that they are drifting more to the right because of the behavior of people like me, tell them that if they don't tolerate people like me, that we'll only get worse. We'll become louder, we'll become harsher, and our methods and goals will become more extreme to combat the growing right-wing. We'll end up forming an even harder left.

So unless they want things to get even worse for them, they'll tolerate how we're treating them right now.

[Theleviathan]

Then you work even harder.

You do things your way, and I'll do things my way.

Here's some advice though, when those people tell you that they are drifting more to the right because of the behavior of people like me, tell them that if they don't tolerate people like me, that we'll only get worse. We'll become louder, we'll become harsher, and our methods and goals will become more extreme to combat the growing right-wing. We'll end up forming an even harder left.

So unless they want things to get even worse for them, they'll tolerate how we're treating them right now.

I'm glad you're at least putting some thought into this. You realize you are acknowledging that your actions are making more right-wingers? In turn, that makes your job harder right? And, logistically with elections, less winnable? Do you genuinely think that their response will be to answer your challenge with fear and cower?

And, before this becomes predictable, that isn't to ask you to cower and fear. Just be willing to lean into "educate" at some point in the process rather than stay simply on "berate". Some on the right deserve nothing more than a good berating. But a great many people fall well short of that and could use more education and enlightenment than anything else.

[jetengine]

I think this is a helpful idea to consider.

We have to allow for a distinction. Especially if our goal is more than the release of frustration.

I mean to be frank its less tone policing and more him calling you out for your sillyness but whatever man. Keep calling yourself "complex" when your supporting bigotry or anti science bullshit.

The right in america may be savable, but defending these assholes isn't worth it.

[babyblob]

The right in america may be savable,

I think the right in America is savable but only after we wake up and see that Trump is not the answer and that he is hurting the party a great deal. I think 2020 will be a wake up call for Republicans when Trump not only loses the White House but several Repubs lose their seats in swing states where people are on the fence or in some of the districts where conservatives are tired of Trump and his backers. Though it may be a slow process. We see several Republicans losing ground because of their blind backing of Trump. A wake up call is needed.

[Theleviathan]

I mean to be frank its less tone policing and more him calling you out for your sillyness but whatever man. Keep calling yourself "complex" when your supporting bigotry or anti science bullshit.

The right in america may be savable, but defending these assholes isn't worth it.

Kicked that strawman's ass - pat yourself on the back. He didn't stand a chance!

[jetengine]

Kicked that strawman's ass - pat yourself on the back. He didn't stand a chance!

Keep on defending assholes and hopefully you'll not be surprised when people call you out.

[Malvolio]

I appreciate your last sentence, let me get to that after just a couple points: I'm not demanding, I'm encouraging. I will continue to encourage those on left to reconsider this tact, support for it, is dismissal of it's consequences. I do think attacking and berating those we disagree with has political fallout. It may not specifically on Maher, but it does generally.

I think if someone is silenced for being angry it's an apt time to call out "tone police" and I am in lockstep agreement with you that it's wrong to silence those people. There is a time to vent and rage, but I hope you agree there is also a time to persuade and educate. I fear the latter is being reduced in importance.

I often used the example of the gay marriage debate for this. There have been some people who consider anyone against gay marriage to be a total raging homophobe. Now some of them are exactly that. But there are some people who have no other problem with homosexuals, but just can't quite wrap their heads around the idea of two men marrying each other. Those people can be reached without vilifying them. They are not the enemy. But when you insist on making them the enemy, you drive them away entirely.

[jetengine]

I often used the example of the gay marriage debate for this. There have been some people who consider anyone against gay marriage to be a total raging homophobe. Now some of them are exactly that. But there are some people who have no other problem with homosexuals, but just can't quite wrap their heads around the idea of two men marrying each other. Those people can be reached without vilifying them. They are not the enemy. But when you insist on making them the enemy, you drive them away entirely.

If you dont understand it, why are you against it ? Like I'm against Dan Didio as DCs Co-Publisher because I researched the effects of him being in charge before Geoff Johns and it was bad. I didnt just say "Fuck Didio" because I felt like it.

And for the particulars of your post those people who "Dont need to be villified" are saying that some people dont deserve the same rights as others because of their ignorance.

[Malvolio]

If you dont understand it, why are you against it ? Like I'm against Dan Didio as DCs Co-Publisher because I researched the effects of him being in charge before Geoff Johns and it was bad. I didnt just say "Fuck Didio" because I felt like it.

Because that's usually how bigotry works. Something makes you afraid for a reason you don't really understand so you hate it. But if someone isn't against homosexuals being teachers in public schools, or homosexuals moving in next door to them, then maybe they can be convinced on gay marriage, but not if we treat them the same as those who are against homosexuals moving in next door or teaching their children.

And if they're against gay marriage because of their ignorance, then isn't it our duty to remove that ignorance in the most constructive way possible? I mean, in school, kids generally don't learn anything from teachers telling them how stupid they are. They just learn to hate school.

[babyblob]

I often used the example of the gay marriage debate for this. There have been some people who consider anyone against gay marriage to be a total raging homophobe. Now some of them are exactly that. But there are some people who have no other problem with homosexuals, but just can't quite wrap their heads around the idea of two men marrying each other. Those people can be reached without vilifying them. They are not the enemy. But when you insist on making them the enemy, you drive them away entirely.

I think of my father when I read this. He has been very supportive of me being gay and coming out. Never threatened to disown me or tell me I am going to hell and all that jazz. When I date a man he takes the time to get to know my bf. Welcomes him into our home and treats him as an equal. But he has stated many times that if I marry a man he will not attend. He is firm that marriage is between a man and a woman. I asked him how he can accept me being gay and not support gay marriage but he answers honestly that he cant explain it. Its just how he feels. I dont believe at all that my dad is a biggot. Maybe down the road I can change his mind, maybe not. But I dont consider him homophobic or the enemy. We debate the topic but I see no need it letting it come between us.