All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[Theleviathan]

That's not really a fair question, because most of Latin America is only as messed up as it is because of US intervention. So if you somehow managed to take imperialism out of the equation entirely, they would all be much better off compared to now, whereas Americans would be much worse off. There may still be a significant gap economically, but it would undoubtedly be far smaller than it is now, and I don't think the average American can quite comprehend just how much our standard of living depends on exploiting and destabilizing our neighbors.

This is also the reason why America has a moral responsibility to take in more immigrants from the third world, because most of the time they only became refugees because of conflicts that we created. It's not really fair to go and take a huge dump in your neighbor's living room, and then complain when he demands to come stay at your house.

We've done lots of awful stuff in our brief history but if we're going to have a "Suck Measuring Contest" doesn't most of Europe have us beat just on legacy and scope? Maybe we'll catch up, but there are all sorts of countries (America included) still reeling from the **** they did.

I think people can criticize American policy without being too hyperbolic. Calling us the most evil ever seems like mostly based on fallacious over-emphasis on the present. If such a distinction is even relevant or helpful to mention.

[numberthirty]

We've done lots of awful stuff in our brief history but if we're going to have a "Suck Measuring Contest" doesn't most of Europe have us beat just on legacy and scope? Maybe we'll catch up, but there are all sorts of countries (America included) still reeling from the **** they did.

I think people can criticize American policy without being too hyperbolic. Calling us the most evil ever seems like mostly based on fallacious over-emphasis on the present. If such a distinction is even relevant or helpful to mention.

Sure...

People are trying to "Over Emphasize" the weight of the country that is still doing this in the year 2019.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

I mean, as long as North Korea's out there, we're at least #2.

North Korea is more brutal to its own citizens, but it has still committed far less evil in the world than the US.

The US also shares some blame for the state of North Korea.

[Theleviathan]

Sure...

People are trying to "Over Emphasize" the weight of the country that is still doing this in the year 2019.

You don't think Europe is still having negative impacts on the world too? Europe is pretty damn awful to Muslim immigrants, maybe worse than us. They ultimately have taken little responsibility in any number of former colonies that they left in ruins to sort out their own mess. Not to mention the awful state of the Middle East owes a lot of that strife to European ****-ups to this day.

America's bad, but seriously.....Europe has been at the pro level for over a thousand years. Maybe trying to make this comparison is kinda pointless, but I really don't like people letting Europe off the hook as much as they are.

[numberthirty]

You don't think Europe is still having negative impacts on the world too? Europe is pretty damn awful to Muslim immigrants, maybe worse than us. They ultimately have taken little responsibility in any number of former colonies that they left in ruins to sort out their own mess. Not to mention the awful state of the Middle East owes a lot of that strife to European ****-ups to this day.

America's bad, but seriously.....Europe has been at the pro level for over a thousand years. Maybe trying to make this comparison is kinda pointless, but I really don't like people letting Europe off the hook as much as they are.

America is still ruining everything from Mexico South right now.

[Theleviathan]

America is still ruining everything from Mexico South right now.

These things are not mutually exclusive. I can state: America is doing really shitty things to latin america and dozens of countries around the world are still reeling from colonization. Many of the problems around the world have their roots in the awful things Europe did. I'd argue some of America's problems have their roots there.

It's not to downplay America's role in creating shitty situations, you guys are just letting Europe off WAY too easy.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

These things are not mutually exclusive. I can state: America is doing really shitty things to latin america and dozens of countries around the world are still reeling from colonization. Many of the problems around the world have their roots in the awful things Europe did. I'd argue some of America's problems have their roots there.

It's not to downplay America's role in creating shitty situations, you guys are just letting Europe off WAY too easy.

No one is letting Europe off.

Right now, the US is the most evil.

Of all time? That's a different discussion.

[Theleviathan]

No one is letting Europe off.

Right now, the US is the most evil.

Of all time? That's a different discussion.

Alright,that's a distinction I can live with. I'm not sure I agree, but I can certainly see the argument.

[numberthirty]

These things are not mutually exclusive. I can state: America is doing really shitty things to latin america and dozens of countries around the world are still reeling from colonization. Many of the problems around the world have their roots in the awful things Europe did. I'd argue some of America's problems have their roots there.

It's not to downplay America's role in creating shitty situations, you guys are just letting Europe off WAY too easy.

Once you can get anywhere near proving Europe is forcing America to do any of what we are talking about?

We might have something to discuss.

Otherwise, The United States can probably put the brakes on all of the wrong things it is doing anytime it wants.

[PwrdOn]

These things are not mutually exclusive. I can state: America is doing really shitty things to latin america and dozens of countries around the world are still reeling from colonization. Many of the problems around the world have their roots in the awful things Europe did. I'd argue some of America's problems have their roots there.

It's not to downplay America's role in creating shitty situations, you guys are just letting Europe off WAY too easy.

The thing is, as bad as European imperialism was, most of the wealth that they managed to extract ended up going to fund wars with each other or to build tacky palaces and monuments to excess, very little of it trickled down to the average European, and thus they were able to decolonize without negatively impacting the livelihoods of their populations too much. On the other hand, Americans are entirely dependent on gunboat diplomacy to sustain our lifestyles, it's not like we're the loudest voice in international affairs because we have the best ideas...

[Theleviathan]

Once you can get anywhere near proving Europe is forcing America to do any of what we are talking about?

We might have something to discuss.

Otherwise, The United States can probably put the brakes on all of the wrong things it is doing anytime it wants.

I think many of the awful things the US is doing abroad is of a subtle nature. Where we throw a grenade in the room, walk away with our hands up, feign innocence, while chaos is left in our wake. I hold the US accountable for that. Europe is the fucking master though. Strife in dozens of nations that may seem of their own doing still call back to colonization and the underhanded **** the Europeans pulled to try and cover their own tracks. America simply hasn't had enough time to profoundly **** the world at that level.

[Theleviathan]

The thing is, as bad as European imperialism was, most of the wealth that they managed to extract ended up going to fund wars with each other or to build tacky palaces and monuments to excess, very little of it trickled down to the average European, and thus they were able to decolonize without negatively impacting the livelihoods of their populations too much. On the other hand, Americans are entirely dependent on gunboat diplomacy to sustain our lifestyles, it's not like we're the loudest voice in international affairs because we have the best ideas...

I strongly disagree with this. If we just isolate the awful ideas that came out of Europe from WWI and WW2s aftermaths we have nearly a century of ruin to blame. And we haven't even gone back to imperialism yet. Don't let those countries off the hook. They inflicted massive amounts of trauma and damage for centuries.

[PwrdOn]

I think many of the awful things the US is doing abroad is of a subtle nature. Where we throw a grenade in the room, walk away with our hands up, feign innocence, while chaos is left in our wake. I hold the US accountable for that. Europe is the fucking master though. Strife in dozens of nations that may seem of their own doing still call back to colonization and the underhanded **** the Europeans pulled to try and cover their own tracks. America simply hasn't had enough time to profoundly **** the world at that level.

It's also worth pointing out that the Europeans pretty much escaped any kind of retribution for their atrocities because they could rely on American support in the postwar era. The Vietnam War was basically just Americans covering the retreat of the French, made extra sad by the lengths to which the Vietnamese went to appeal to our better nature to try and gain our sympathy, even quoting our Declaration of Independence in their own declaration.

I strongly disagree with this. If we just isolate the awful ideas that came out of Europe from WWI and WW2s aftermaths we have nearly a century of ruin to blame. And we haven't even gone back to imperialism yet. Don't let those countries off the hook. They inflicted massive amounts of trauma and damage for centuries.

The point was not that America was any better or worse than Europe, but that European imperialism was largely a vanity project for their rulers, whereas American imperialism is necessary for our continued survival as a society. And besides, American and European imperialism are arguably two sides of the same coin, and the people who are the most in favor of military adventurism tend to love Europe. After all it's not like we're conducting drone strikes over London and Paris, or trying to extract painful economic concessions on the EU with gunboat diplomacy. No matter how weird and alien European culture can be, they are always considered to be part of "us" while people much closer to home are invariably "them," I wonder why that is...

[Dalak]

I'm not pretending that America's hands aren't dripping with blood, especially with the current administration trying to out brutalize foreign dictators, but don't forget that China is still literally cutting up their prisoners and religious minorities and selling the bits off.

There is much evil in the world and not all of it can be blamed on any single thing other than humanity's own inherent inhumanity.

[Gray Lensman]

I'm not pretending that America's hands aren't dripping with blood, especially with the current administration trying to out brutalize foreign dictators, but don't forget that China is still literally cutting up their prisoners and religious minorities and selling the bits off.

There is much evil in the world and not all of it can be blamed on any single thing other than humanity's own inherent inhumanity.

Plus they are pretty much the guys keeping North Korea afloat. Anything that regime does can have the lion's share pinned on China more than the U.S.