All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[Kieran_Frost]

Granted, but Sarandon was a lone voice most "held their noses and voted Clinton" (their own words), unlike this time. Every activist I've followed/watched is advocating this strategy as are their often angry followers/watchers. Their rage against Biden and the "Corrupt Establishment" is already far greater than it ever was against Clinton. I think their rage stems from the fact they know this will likely be Sanders' last chance to be president considering his age.

No, Biden's a man. The hate will be less.

The vast majority of Sanders supporters voted for Hillary and she still narrowly lost. They need them, regardless. Democrats win via large turnout.

An arguement BernieBros would have done better to listen to themselves while they continued to a) spread vile nastiness on-line, OR b) turned a blind eye to it! Which I'm sorry to say you were guilty of. Why was it acceptable to alienate Democrates when it looked like Sanders would get the nomination, but now it seems less likely the arguement is "you need ALL of us to win"???

I grew up with a lot of black women who were "part" Native American. The part was mostly due to the hair blend they bought.

Thank you to username taken, Kusanagi, Kieran Frost, Darkspellmaster and anyone else who liked my previous post urging unity following the Democratic Primaries. No matter who you vote for in your state's primary, you have to like whoever the eventual nominee is better than Trump, and therefore, vote for that nominee in November.

This is such a sweet post. Thank-you. And thank-you to you too.

[PwrdOn]

Only the people who don't know much about the reality of American society didn't think that way "before".



A lot of us saw it coming from a mile away.

But if that's the case, why bother trying to go back to the America of 2016 when the same people were still around and just as racist, only somewhat less vocal about it? Why not push for real change instead?

[The Overlord]

Agreed -- but I still blame the American public if they choose Trump over Biden.

At that point it will basically be a question of whether they prefer what they had with Obama or what they now have with Trump.

If he wins, he wins, if he loses, I am not going to take anyone seriously who blames his loose on Bernie Bros. Biden has to convince people to vote for him, that will be his job if he wins the nomination.

People on this thread have to realize there are ton of people who ambivalent to Trump, he has fanatical base and he has people who hate him, but I think the working-class people who voted Trump in the Rust Belt are gettable this time, but you need an argument for them beyond ''Trump is bad''. Biden has to actually to sell himself on something other than not being Trump.

It's largely because I think there are legitimate differences in approach. I sincerely think that moderates (at least moderates that I talk to on the daily, not the candidates, for whom I can only really assume their true intentions) really do care about providing quality and affordable health care and really do sincerely care about addressing climate change. Let's not forget that Obama's biggest executive actions and agreements during his last two years were designed to address climate change, from the international level to the domestic level. He also worked on addressing Iran's nuclear program without hitting them with missiles. These are the differences that we see between "moderate" Democrats, who legitimately do care, but may differ in approach to these issues, and Republicans, especially those like Trump. And we also need to acknowledge there is a difference between being socially progressive and economically progressive. I'm a person who views Sanders as very FDR-esque--willing to sacrifice everything necessary to accomplish economic goals that materially benefit people, even if it comes at the expense of helping white folks more. Meanwhile, folks like Obama staked a great deal of their progressive reputation on ensuring that transgender kids wouldn't be beaten up for going to a bathroom in a school. There is a reason historians even said in a survey that Obama was the third best president in American history regarding his record with social policy--beaten only by Abraham Lincoln and Lyndon B. Johnson (and arguably he did it better than Johnson, because he didn't have to be dragged kicking and screaming to these end points). I don't think we would get that with Sanders.



Oh, no. I understood. I was further building my case upon your response. You're all good man.

Racial justice and economic policies are intertwined, you can't have racial justice without taking on the redlining policies the banks promote and that would require taking on the banks:

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/...owners/557576/

[Kirby101]

Agreed -- but I still blame the American public if they choose Trump over Biden.

At that point it will basically be a question of whether they prefer what they had with Obama or what they now have with Trump.

Trump was in some ways an unknown before -- people can't hide behind that excuse anymore.

Trump will lose the popular vote, again. The American voters will pick Biden (or Sanders) Trump might squeeze out n Electoral win again, that is the danger.

[aja_christopher]

But if that's the case, why bother trying to go back to the America of 2016 when the same people were still around and just as racist, only somewhat less vocal about it? Why not push for real change instead?

Because "real change" can happen without Bernie Sanders.

Moderate Democrats have been changing things for decades -- Sanders supporters just refuse to acknowledge it.

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...ed-legislation

Again -- if you want lasting "progressive" change then keep Republicans out of power so they can't undo the progressive policies put in place by Democrats.

If he wins, he wins, if he loses, I am not going to take anyone seriously who blames his loose on Bernie Bros. Biden has to convince people to vote for him, that will be his job if he wins the nomination.

People on this thread have to realize there are ton of people who ambivalent to Trump, he has fanatical base and he has people who hate him, but I think the working-class people who voted Trump in the Rust Belt are gettable this time, but you need an argument for them beyond ''Trump is bad''. Biden has to actually to sell himself on something other than not being Trump.

You're complaining about things no one is even arguing about.

Yes, Biden needs to prove himself just like any political candidate and if he loses (which is likely given historical precedent) that's just the nature of democracy.

That said -- Sanders supporters need to likewise stop blaming others for Sanders' (consistent) election losses.

[aja_christopher]

[Deleted.]

[Darkspellmaster]

This idea that Sanders hasn’t ever been on the offensive is ridiculous. He actually needs to move to evaluating WHY Biden consolidated so much support from people of color. Sanders needs to use it to become a better, more inclusive candidate who doesn’t rely as much on white folks with and without degrees. If he can successfully pivot, recognize that he needs to change his strategy from “waa, waa, the establishment” all the time and provide substance to his platform and avoid going after the most popular Democratic politician in the party, Obama, while doing it, all the better. I just don’t know that is who he is.

But, good for him for making that effort:

https://twitter.com/ccadelago/status...899465216?s=21

The whole Sanders Campaign has always sounded very much like the Neo Jacobin group from the French Revolution. Economy over class or race, and that's the rub right there. Most places are built around othering people and the economic aspects follow that. There's a lot of things out there that everyone would agree on in regard to over all, it's the way that it's presented and showing that there's something there in place to start with that can get approved. Saying it's the Establishment, when you are part of the Establishment and have been for years, is not helping matters. There is no, Establishment, because that keeps constantly changing. You want people to go for Universal Healthcare, set up a full on, with examples, easy to access moblie phone website that uses gameification to teach people what your benifits are. Also what doesn't help in the case of going after Obama is that it's an old white guy going after a black president. That does not look good in some peoples optics, especially when he's the first person of color to hold the seat. Say what you will about Clinton or other sitting presidents, sure, but targeting Obama is not the best look. Yes you can comment on his policies, but keep in mind who you are saying it to and the view of it.

Again, I wlll state, if Warren was a man, there would be no contest here on who would be nominated at this point.

Black voters simply don't trust Bernie. Right or wrong, that's how it is. Bernie's bet was always (he's said it himself) to turn out the young voters.

Well....they didn't show up. Period. Not some conspiracy about open primaries. Not about same day registration. They've known for the better part of 4 years that they could be ready to vote for Bernie. They....didn't....show.

And frankly, it's not that surprising. That's what the data has said historically forever. Had Bernie reversed that trend he'd have deserved the nomination. He couldn't. So he shouldn't.

Regarding Theleviathan's point above. One of the reasons why Younger voters don't come out is because they already have a lot to think about right now. Not just "Fun" things, they also have to consider their jobs, college or not, family, and so much more in the world globally that older voters didn't have to think about. Then there's the "Well I can sit out this and wait four years."

If politicans really wanted to court the younger crowd, instagram, youtube and snap chatting. Using social media platforms and making themselves out to be the SM politician that understands how younger people communicate. Become, as weird as this sounds, a SM influencer that talks about things. Such as, I don't know, putting on make up and using it to explain Health plan policies. Having a ASMR video about dealing with climate change. Vlog a campaign trip using public transportation and talk to people on the road and sit and chat with them. Do a, whatever healthy (not cinnimon or tide pods) challenge with the crew to set up for a ralley and talk about your experinces. Fashion haul discussing unionization and issues with lobbiest. ETC. As weird as those sound, it can work because it puts it in a more personal scope for younger viewers who may be watching those things.

[jetengine]

I think the world needs to stop catering to the young quite so much. They are the fickliest, least loyal group across nearly every category. TV shows do this all the time. The data PROVES the most loyal TV watchers, the largest group of TV watchers, the people who buy off the adverts surround shows most... are all older. So why is every other show catering for the youth market??? When they historically don't stay loyal to a show as much, when they don't buy off the adverts as much, when they don't follow the show if it changes time slot or channel. Marks and Spencers did this, they had such a loyal market in the middle class woman, but wanted to be "kewwwwwwl" so started catering to the young. And what happened? They finally pushed away their loyal market, and failed to get the youth to buy their clothes. Stupid.

Corbyn bet on the youth vote in the UK too. And look how that turned out.


If it was only Democrates in the Senate and Congress, I bet they could. But what is constantly ignored is this is almost THE ONLY time Democrates get to do everything how they want, without having to deal with Republican motivations.

Because the old are statistically conservative and refuse to change their views. Combine that with their ignorance and yoy have a deadly mixture.

[Kieran_Frost]

That’s all nice and well but you have to realize most Bernie supporters are young people who historically only come out when they are motivated and they just spent months enduring being called toxic, racist, homophobic, and Trump like. They barely believe in the process anyways, in one of their first engagements with it got berated, and then watched all the moderates in the establishment panic in a final nuclear tactic to stop Sanders which basically signals to them that the party has zero interest in ever running anybody who supports the policies they like.

It’s going to be very difficult convincing them to come out and wait in line all day to support the people that basically spit on them and the party that rallied because they were terrified of their preferred candidate and policies. And no they don’t have the same affinity for the Democratic Party that older voters do.

Well to be fair, based off Super Tuesday results... they didn't come out regardless. If Sanders couldn't even get them out, I'm not sure we should put too much energy into worrying about their support???

The common element with regards to said behavior is Sanders.

That's not a coinicidence -- that's a direct result of his continuous attacks on the Democratic "establishment" (when he's not even a Democrat) and his supporters ongoing ruthless attacks on other candiates like Clinton, Biden, Beto, Harris, Buttigieg, and Warren as well as more far more successful politicians like Obama and Pelosi.

Then when others point this out, they get defensive are argue they are being treated unfairly when in reality they are just being called out for their destructive behavior -- when someone is trying to burn your house down from the inside, the "fair" thing to do isn't to sit there and let it happen.

Ding ding ding ding ding!

You are on fire today, we are on the same page. We're twinning. It's official!

Whilst I wouldn't say we're in a Dictatorship the UK is not in anyway healthy politically and its very clear people are being duped.

Still nothing close to a dictatorship. Not even remotely. We are so privileged in the UK, we really have nothing to worry about in terms of a dictatorship. We're actually a very liberal, lucky country in many, many ways (yes, due in part to prosperity that breeds privilege and comfort and ergo the need to complain at said privilege when in reality it's still a sweet gig). Hell, we have the ultimate check-and-balance against one... we have the Queen! There's a reason the army swear loyalty to the Queen NOT to the Prime Minister; to stop a dictator.

Because the old are statistically conservative and refuse to change their views. Combine that with their ignorance and yoy have a deadly mixture.

Huh? As in... with TV???

[The Overlord]

Because "real change" can happen without Bernie Sanders.

Moderate Democrats have been changing things for years -- Sanders supporters just refuse to acknowledge it.

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...ed-legislation

Again -- if you want lasting "progressive" change then get Republicans out of power.



You're complaining about things no one is even arguing about.

Yes, Biden needs to prove himself just like any political candidate and if he loses (which is likely given historical precedent) that's just the nature of democracy.

That said -- Sanders supporters need to likewise stop blaming others for Sanders' (consistent) election losses.

I am just saying don't blame Bernie Bros if Biden loses if he loses its his fault and if he loses, maybe that conventional wisdom that keeps on picking people like Biden, is not working.

If you can't say if that this the most important election of our lifetime and defeating Trump is the upmost important thing, then be caliver about Biden losing, it makes the stakes of this election seem less important, if conventional wisdom means Biden is the nominee and he loses, that this supposed conventional wisdom just got us another term of Trump. You don't like Bernie, fine, that's your right, but if you want Biden over Bernie, you have to actually make the case on why Biden can beat Trump, you have to put some effort in picking a side and actually trying to prove your case, because if all you do is pick Biden and then sit on the sidelines and say ''he's not Trump'', I do not see how you are putting a real effort into defeating Trump.

The argument is that Biden is more electable than Bernie, than I have one thing to say to that: prove it.

[aja_christopher]

I am just saying don't blame Bernie Bros if Biden loses if he loses its his fault and if he loses, maybe that conventional wisdom that keeps on picking people like Biden, is not working.

If you can't say if that this the most important election of our lifetime and defeating Trump is the upmost important thing, you cannot be caliver about Biden losing, it makes the stakes of this election seem less important, if conventional wisdom means Biden is the nominee and he loses, that this supposed conventional wisdom just got us another term of Trump. You don't like Bernie, fine, that's your right, but if you want Biden over Bernie, you have to actually make the case on why Biden can beat Trump, you have to put some effort in picking a side and actually trying to prove your case, because if all you do is pick Biden and then sit on the sidelines and say ''he's not Trump'', I do not see how you are putting a real effort into defeating Trump.

I don't care about Biden of Bernie -- I care about getting Trump out of office.

You're the one trying to make it all about division rather than winning the general election.

If Sanders wins the nomination, he has my support.

And if he loses either, he also has no one to blame but himself.

We are so privileged in the UK, we really have nothing to worry about in terms of a dictatorship. We're actually a very liberal, lucky country in many, many ways (yes, due in part to prosperity that breeds privilege and comfort and ergo the need to complain at said privilege when in reality it's still a sweet gig). Hell, we have the ultimate check-and-balance against one... we have the Queen! There's a reason the army swear loyalty to the Queen NOT to the Prime Minister; to stop a dictator.

I used to think I might move back to the UK but then Boris Johnson won and Prince Harry moved out, so now I have my doubts.

I saw enough Brits in LA to know the grass always seems greener on the other side, regardless.

[jetengine]

Well to be fair, based off Super Tuesday results... they didn't come out regardless. If Sanders couldn't even get them out, I'm not sure we should put too much energy into worrying about their support???


Ding ding ding ding ding!

You are on fire today, we are on the same page. We're twinning. It's official!



Still nothing close to a dictatorship. Not even remotely. We are so privileged in the UK, we really have nothing to worry about in terms of a dictatorship. We're actually a very liberal, lucky country in many, many ways (yes, due in part to prosperity that breeds privilege and comfort and ergo the need to complain at said privilege when in reality it's still a sweet gig). Hell, we have the ultimate check-and-balance against one... we have the Queen! There's a reason the army swear loyalty to the Queen NOT to the Prime Minister; to stop a dictator.


Huh? As in... with TV???

The Queen means nothing politically and despite the military's assertion that their apolitical their mostly conservative. The Queen could interfere ONCE within a political situation, after that any government even vaguely competent will remove her. Why do you think she didnt intervene on Brexit despite the hideous amount of social and economic damage its done ?

As for the Elderly, many legitimately dont understand how the modern world works (technology, economically or even current affairs frankly) and are suckered into voting for things against their interests, such as more Tory rule. You know, the guys who think Foodbanks are a-ok and gave bets on the British government falling to make big wins with vulture capitalism ?

[Panfoot]

Well congrats to the Biden Bros, at least either way all the billionaires will get to keep their tax cuts.

[The Overlord]

I don't care about Biden of Bernie -- I care about getting Trump out of office.

You're the one trying to make it all about division rather than winning the general election.

If Sanders wins the nomination, he has my support.

And if he loses either, he also has no one to blame but himself.

Are you going to put some actual political capital and effort into defeating him?

Except for everyone here complains about Bernie or Bernie Bros, etc, have said Biden is more electable. I say: prove it. Get him over the finish the line if he is the nominee, don't take those working-class people in the Rust Belt for granted this time. Because if Biden loses, that whole electable argument was a farce, it only has merit if he wins. If you want Trump to lose, you have to passionate about something other than ''Not Trump''. Biden's vision will have to be sold to people who are ambivalent to Trump, you want to sell these people, you have to a well thought out argument on why they should choose Biden over Trump.

[Kieran_Frost]

Well, that's a whole 'nother situation. One could have made the argument that the "big tent" was a thing a generation and a half ago, but a major concern for the Democratic party for several years has been, "How do we win back all the people we've lost ( Reagan Dems, blue collar workers, young people in general, etc)?"

Sorry, this is my ignorance here, what are Reagen Dems??? I thought he was a Republican?

And Bernie supporters aren't monolithic. He just has inspired a particularly noisy and fiery base. I have many very intelligent, reasonable-minded friends who support Bernie.

Also very true. It's just he inspired A LOT of noisy hate. It made me uncomfortable. It reminded me so much or Corbynistas. Most of my friends believed in Corybn in a very rational, pleasant way. But like Sanders... Corbyn for some reason just attracted some very hateful people to his cause, in larger numbers than is usual (in my opinion) to find from the left. And that worried me. Didn't sit well, you know?

While I don’t see Bernie or his supporters as either “Marxists” or “communists”, I do agree that the lack of importance placed on sociocultural differences are part of what causes problems for many modern leftists. These things can’t, nor should they be, erased for simplicities sake. These issues are complicated and so too should be our prescriptions to address them.

THIS! Not everything can be boiled down to rich/poor.