All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[babyblob]

....but they ARE racist, sexist homophobes. Its not hard. Unless your a single issue voter in which case your an idiot

See as Someone who has followed the GOP most of my adult life it is hard to back Dems when I am always called things like this. Dems want more Rebuplicans to see the light as they say and vote against Trump then there are personal attacks. I am not voting for Trump this time around. But why should I get behind a party that berates me all the time when I admit that I agree with the GOP on some(Not all things) But somethings.

Of course the GOP is no better in their handling of Dem voters and supporters. This country is so divided that it is no longer okay to disagree.

[TheDarman]

See as Someone who has followed the GOP most of my adult life it is hard to back Dems when I am always called things like this. Dems want more Rebuplicans to see the light as they say and vote against Trump then there are personal attacks. I am not voting for Trump this time around. But why should I get behind a party that berates me all the time when I admit that I agree with the GOP on some(Not all things) But somethings.

Of course the GOP is no better in their handling of Dem voters and supporters. This country is so divided that it is no longer okay to disagree.

The way I look at it is that I have no issue when someone shares the same goals I do, but believe that something else will get us to that shared goal. I think there is room for discussion there. For example, if a Republican agrees that we should be working towards creating an economy that works for all people and raises wages, I am more than willing to hear out what his or her ideas are before explaining why I disagree.

What becomes problematic for me is when our goals don’t align. For example, if a Republican believes that gay marriage shouldn’t be allowed to preserve “religious freedom” in our country, I know the goal is to keep a minority down and elevate “normal” people. I can’t agree with the goal and think any action towards meeting that goal is wrong-headed and immoral.

[Mister Mets]

A co-worker who hates Trump just brought up one mother of a conspiracy theory to me a few minutes ago. She's of the belief Trump slow walked the government's response about coronavirus ON PURPOSE, allowing it to get out of control so he'd have an excuse to declare a national emergency and suspend the election if it isn't contained by November. Now, I have no doubt Trump is hellbent on being reelected, both because he's drunk on the power that comes with being president, and because that's the only thing keeping him from a court date to face charges from the Mueller Report, but I seriously doubt even he would be so diabolical as to intentionally put millions of American lives at risk just better his chances of reelection. Still, one has to wonder just how far Trump would go to stay in office.

Your coworker is attributing to evil what could be incompetence and wishful thinking.

It would also be quite difficult to change the election dates. It would require congressional legislation and court approval. It would only happen if the Democratic-controlled House were on board.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/u...-canceled.html

Maybe some conservative poster would decide it was a good time to not be lazy and do a write up for them, if they felt like actually defending their farce of an argument for the first time in 6 years.

I'm just trying to help you save time on April 1st.

Yeah, I can see all the issues with Biden, but my knock on Bernie is that I think he’s slightly more likely to lose than Biden. In both cases, I think they’d make a bad candidate for a general election against what was a more conventional Republican candidate from the past; neither is quite as truly electric as they’d need to be in that case. If Biden beats Trump, or if Bernie had the nomination and beat Trump, I feel that would say more about Trump and his horrible nature than anything else - that ultimately his tactics prove too divisive and disruptive towards the very Republican Party he’s taken over, cutting off their necessary extensions and expansions onto important demographics and alienating moderates into his opposition.

Basically, considering he’s a populist style demagogue with no impulse control and the most banal motivations, it’s more a question of whether he can sustain his nuclear fission style outpouring of hate long enough to overcome the decay and degradation his tactics naturally provide as well.

Bernie has some very real electric appeal and power, but I see his greatest appeal as being towards the demographics that are simply limited in their participation percentages (the youth vote) and towards the coastal centers of Democratic power, and there would always be an offset he’d have towards moderates, which would be an exacerbated issue now. Biden doesn’t really have that at all... but is regarded as a “safe choice” by many, because he has a career with proof positive of appealing to blue collar white voters and is firmly linked to the Obama coalition. Basically, his claim to success isn’t really “electability” in a since of him being a good candidate, but instead of being the most “good enough” candidate.

To paraphrase SNL’s Michael Che, Biden is the kind of “boring old white dude” that people compare Trump to and wish to return to as a baseline. And what impact Biden’s more old-man-acting-juvenile antics may have concerning that confronts a toon with the guy spouting the lies about Biden wanting to take away all the guns may depend more about whether or not it’s a bad move against Trump more than a worthy move of a Democrat; I mean, Biden was confronted by bull, called it bull, and expressed himself in a juvenile way... but I don’t know if that depreciates his stock any vs Trump because Trump’s far more juvenile and dependent on bull for his entire campaign. Like, I struggle to see someone looking at that and deciding that means they’d vote for Trump instead, or not vote at all; frankly, the sheer bull Trump spouts daily makes Grump Old Democrats seem completely tolerable by comparison.

So it really isn’t Biden vs Trump. It’s Trump vs the Trump Backlash; how many Democrats, Democrat friendly demographics, and Never Trump moderates really are there in the key swing states? And will they be sufficiently motivated to come out?

That’s part of the reason why the market’s damage in this pandemic could end up annoyingly meaning more than all the other inexcusable stuff he did. The pandemic is bad enough as it is, but if Trump’s myth of being a president great for business fails as well, through something he can’t control, that could end up being the tipping point for voters who *should* be convinced based off more substantial stuff about him, but aren’t paying enough attention to it.

Is there anyone among the Democrats who would make a good match for a generic Republican?

A generic Republican with the pre-Coronavirus economy and a competent response to the crisis would be a heavy favorite for reelection.

I'm an immigration lawyer working on the front lines of this, and while Obama is by no means some perfect saint, I really don't see anything to really get worked up on immigration-wise. He's still the best President the U.S. has ever had on immigration since it became a political thing (the U.S. used to just let anyone in during the old days of wild west no labor laws rampant free market capitalism). Most deportations happened at the border, especially when Obama was trying to curry favor with Republicans. There's a world of difference between turning away before they can establish themselves in the U.S. and turning them away once they've sneaked in, settle down and started a family in the U.S. Obama gets a lot of unfair heat for enforcing the laws as they were written while sorting out priorities to do the least harm.

Yes, he could have tried harder for immigration reform. But he had a damn lot on his plate. Saving the economy from the great depression, investing in renewable energy, and destroying his power for healthcare reform was the correct order of priorities. Plus, DACA.



I'm very happy to have clear-eyed liberals ready to take Obama's record seriously for good and bad. Personally, Off the top of my head, I'd say Libya was his greatest failure, accidentally bombing a Doctors Without Borders building, and pursuing gun control legislation was a heart-wrenching and noble effort which ultimately amounted to nothing. But the drone program? Using drones to patrol the border is an effective and cost-efficient solution. Using them to bomb targets overseas is no worse than using manned air-strikes. If you want a withdrawal from the Middle-East, that's a fine position and a different kettle of fish. But if the U.S. is staying to fight terrorists or extremist groups or whatever, drone strikes are going to be part of any efficient strategy there.

What type of immigration reforms would you like to see?

....but they ARE racist, sexist homophobes. If you vote for rscist, sexist, homophobes and you've repeatedly been told they are AND ITS INFLUENCING THEIR POLICY then its abundantly clear. Its not hard. Unless your a single issue voter in which case your an idiot

It is typically bad politics to suggest that many voters are deeply flawed. It doesn't get the swing voters are on your side, it invites potentially controversial questions (What is the Democratic party's position on what policies can only be supported by bigots?) and it also pisses off some voters on your side who know people on the other side (although, this is a lesser problem with increasing polarization.)

Sure. But it looks like Trump’s strategy wasn’t to build up turnout on his end. Rather, it was about hurting turnout for Clinton and getting Trump to be viewed as the lesser of two evils for those who liked neither candidate.



Except, according to polling in Arizona for example, Biden is the better candidate to do that anyway against Trump.



That can’t be true! Bernie Sanders is above-board on making any decisions that are purely political! He is a prophet like figure that is unmatched in his genuinely good heart!

However, I do think a number of people got conned into supporting him the first time and buying into a false equivalence, often pushed by Trump himself, that Hillary and him weren’t all that different from one another on social issues. We know that isn’t true now, of course. Anyone who has stood by him as an active supporter has either been willfully ignorant of Trump’s racism and their continued support of it or are actively supporting him because of that.

Biden is not making the claim that all or most Republicans are racist, sexist homophobes. Believing Republican voters are worthy of respect is not something that distinguishes Sanders or Biden.

[babyblob]

The way I look at it is that I have no issue when someone shares the same goals I do, but believe that something else will get us to that shared goal. I think there is room for discussion there. For example, if a Republican agrees that we should be working towards creating an economy that works for all people and raises wages, I am more than willing to hear out what his or her ideas are before explaining why I disagree.

What becomes problematic for me is when our goals don’t align. For example, if a Republican believes that gay marriage shouldn’t be allowed to preserve “religious freedom” in our country, I know the goal is to keep a minority down and elevate “normal” people. I can’t agree with the goal and think any action towards meeting that goal is wrong-headed and immoral.

I think it is good you think there is room for discussion. Many people dont. There is so much bad blood between the parties. People find out I agree with Republicans on some issues I am a hate monger racist homophone. When my republican friends find out I agree with Dems on some things I am a socialist nut job who wants to give the country away.

I have no problem with people whose goals dont match mine. I dont agree with it but it is life. Not everyone will agree. it is when they get heavy handed on things that is bothers me. Anyone who says their way is the only right way is misguided in my view.

I live with my father. He does not agree with Gay marriage. I dont call him homophobic or attack him. It is just the way he is.

The people of both parties attack each other so often and with such anger and hate that it becomes hard to work together or want to switch sides.

[jetengine]

See as Someone who has followed the GOP most of my adult life it is hard to back Dems when I am always called things like this. Dems want more Rebuplicans to see the light as they say and vote against Trump then there are personal attacks. I am not voting for Trump this time around. But why should I get behind a party that berates me all the time when I admit that I agree with the GOP on some(Not all things) But somethings.

Of course the GOP is no better in their handling of Dem voters and supporters. This country is so divided that it is no longer okay to disagree.

Its very simple dude. People are voting for a party that hates non whites, non straights, non Christians, science and cares only about enriching itself at the expense of others. The data is out there, the facts are out there. The right claims its a party of facts and logic but they tend to be the most illogical ones crying out whenever the evidence is laid on the table.

Now that doesn't nean individuals can't do good things. Again, my prime minister is a racist, homophobic, sexist grifter (literally 15k was spent on a holiday and the moneys appeared out of nowhere) but his response to Covid 19 was good, ecen if it amounted to "Let the smart people decide what we need to do". However it also doesnt invalidate the other ****.

But on to the voters, again and again people are shown the damage the right causes. They ignore it. So at that point their either stupid, brainwashed or in agreement.

As for my single issue voter comment these people would let through anything if they got the one thing they want, thus making their votes worthless.

When the right stop being assholes then I'll stop calling them out.

[kidfresh512]

See as Someone who has followed the GOP most of my adult life it is hard to back Dems when I am always called things like this. Dems want more Rebuplicans to see the light as they say and vote against Trump then there are personal attacks. I am not voting for Trump this time around. But why should I get behind a party that berates me all the time when I admit that I agree with the GOP on some(Not all things) But somethings.

Of course the GOP is no better in their handling of Dem voters and supporters. This country is so divided that it is no longer okay to disagree.

I get what you are saying here to an extent. I have said many times working in the Oil industry in Texas i am surrounded by GOP/Trump voters every day. I know not ALL of them are racist or homophobes. But, They vote for people who are. They vote for people who pander and make policy that directly attacks us. So is it hyperbole to do a sweeping generalization that one party is this or that? Sure. But, it can be said that even those who are one issue voters and thats the only reason they hang on as a GOP supporter...they are doing nothing but enabling the behaviour and policies that do hurt minorities and LGBT.

And they won't stop or be forced to change those policies as long as they have those type people continuing to support them. GOP do not have to court minority votes. They actively seek to limit minority representation. They can get away with it specifically because their own voters allow it and do not hold them accountable.

So are they all racist? No. But, the entire GOP voting pool does bear responsibility for not forcing their party to get more in line with the part of the support base that isnt these things.

[TheDarman]

Biden is not making the claim that all or most Republicans are racist, sexist homophobes. Believing Republican voters are worthy of respect is not something that distinguishes Sanders or Biden.

Nah. But Biden is a “dirty centrist” that is practically a Republican anyway so it would make sense. /sarcasm

[babyblob]

I get what you are saying here to an extent. I have said many times working in the Oil industry in Texas i am surrounded by GOP/Trump voters every day. I know not ALL of them are racist or homophobes. But, They vote for people who are. They vote for people who pander and make policy that directly attacks us. So is it hyperbole to do a sweeping generalization that one party is this or that? Sure. But, it can be said that even those who are one issue voters and thats the only reason they hang on as a GOP supporter...they are doing nothing but enabling the behaviour and policies that do hurt minorities and LGBT.

And they won't stop or be forced to change those policies as long as they have those type people continuing to support them. GOP do not have to court minority votes. They actively seek to limit minority representation. They can get away with it specifically because their own voters allow it and do not hold them accountable.

So are they all racist? No. But, the entire GOP voting pool does bear responsibility for not forcing their party to get more in line with the part of the support base that isnt these things.

I do agree with this. Sadly Trump and his kind have made things worse in the party and make it much harder for reform. Being what I call a common sense Republican I find it hard to support the party and would love for things to change. But people like me are getting shouted down and outvoted by the extremists.

[jetengine]

I have no problem with people whose goals dont match mine. I dont agree with it but it is life. Not everyone will agree. it is when they get heavy handed on things that is bothers me. Anyone who says their way is the only right way is misguided in my view.

I live with my father. He does not agree with Gay marriage. I dont call him homophobic or attack him. It is just the way he is.

The problem is most of the rights goals are heavy handed. Literally on the last page, their so mono maniacally obsessed with womens organs and ability to control them that their trying to bring an important bill INTO a bill already dealing with a pandemic. Their not taking either seriously despite the massive consequences such a bill would have.

As for your father, with the deepest respects its "not the way he is" your not born hating gays, no one is. He learnt that, most likely unintentionally but its not a standard trait people have. And when you hate gay people you'r a homophobe.

[jetengine]

I do agree with this. Sadly Trump and his kind have made things worse in the party and make it much harder for reform. Being what I call a common sense Republican I find it hard to support the party and would love for things to change. But people like me are getting shouted down and outvoted by the extremists.

That I will agree with, the common sense "Look were here to ensure spendings not crazy, government doesn't become too overbearing and no one legalises crazy stuff" Republicans are nearly extinct

[TheDarman]

I do agree with this. Sadly Trump and his kind have made things worse in the party and make it much harder for reform. Being what I call a common sense Republican I find it hard to support the party and would love for things to change. But people like me are getting shouted down and outvoted by the extremists.

The parties have been due for a realignment for a good while now. The last realignment came after Democrats broke out in support of Civil Rights after Johnson was seen as the key figure pushing it in the ‘60s and then Nixon implanted the “Southern Strategy” to sweep the South to get into the White House. I think both Sanders and Trump represent that realignment that is coming eventually. Trump’s campaign more so than his presidency represented a general shift in the electorate towards not making entitlement cuts and the like. Remove the cult of personality he has, it looks like we are moving to consensus on breaking down the neoliberal world order while shifting the conversation of entitlements to the left and further creating battles on an increasingly divided electorate on social issues. Sanders’ campaign, meanwhile, really does seem to be pushing for more entitlements to add to the government. During this pandemic, we have seen how much better we would be if Sanders’ policies were implemented. But, again, we are seeing that breakdown of the neoliberal world order of free trade in favor of isolationism and protectionism.

[babyblob]

The problem is most of the rights goals are heavy handed. Literally on the last page, their so mono maniacally obsessed with womens organs and ability to control them that their trying to bring an important bill INTO a bill already dealing with a pandemic. Their not taking either seriously despite the massive consequences such a bill would have.

As for your father, with the deepest respects its "not the way he is" your not born hating gays, no one is. He learnt that, most likely unintentionally but its not a standard trait people have. And when you hate gay people you'r a homophobe.

My dad doesnt hate gay people. he was very supportive when I came out. I have guys over to our house and he welcomes them and treats them with respect. He just doesnt like the idea of gay marriage.

[jetengine]

My dad doesnt hate gay people. he was very supportive when I came out. I have guys over to our house and he welcomes them and treats them with respect. He just doesnt like the idea of gay marriage.

And why doesnt he like gay marriage?

[babyblob]

And why doesnt he like gay marriage?

He was raised in a religious house hold. They drilled into him that marriage is between a man and woman. He accepts me being gay but doesnt support marriage. I mean he doesnt go buts about it. he just doesnt agree with it. Its no big deal to me.

[TheDarman]

That I will agree with, the common sense "Look were here to ensure spendings not crazy, government doesn't become too overbearing and no one legalises crazy stuff" Republicans are nearly extinct

Yeah, you really just have a choice between two “big government” parties with one being more fiscally responsible (Democrats, contrary to the odd popular belief). But where Democrats will increase programs for SNAP, health insurance access, and beyond, Republicans are often concerned with restricting rights to abortions, gay marriages, and drug use. Republicans will also increase budgets for the military, where we already spend more than the next twenty-five countries behind us combined, most of whom are allies. The reason they can’t do that fiscally responsibly is because they continue to cut revenue streams to do it, content with the myth that cutting taxes will INCREASE revenue as if by magic. Democrats, meanwhile, can’t go two steps without being asked “but how will you pay for it?”