All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[shooshoomanjoe]

They still can always find money to help the rich though am I right or wrong?
America is about to be tested in away we haven't before.

The best option is that Covid-19 hits, and loss of life is minimal.
The worse that happens is that it's a true pandemic and the economy TANKS, and there's nothing Biden, Bernie, or Trump can do to help short term.

Also, they still will not help people in substantial ways in not getting sick or tested, and possible job loss.

They can ALWAYS find money for War and rich people...
Always.

The 2009 flu pandemic was more disastrous than covid 19. I don't remember being out of tp back then though.

[XPac]

Except the centrists on this board have been stereotyping Bernie supporters as "Bernie Bros" seemingly irredeemable sexist, racist, cultists, but now you want everyone to forget all that and just vote for Biden? Those arguments make seem like Bernie supporters are unwanted in the modern Democratic coalition.

If Biden is supposed to be the electable one, he should be able to make a case to convince the "Bernie Bros" to vote for him. Maybe he should change his stance on drug legalization and present an actual good health care plan.

He can (and might) change his stance on issues to bring in Sander supporters if/when Sanders drops out BUT at this late in the game would anyone believe him? It's pretty obvious whatever he says is just damage control.

He'll do what he can, but fair or not I think he's banking on most progressives prefering him over Trump.

[Mister Mets]

They still can always find money to help the rich though am I right or wrong?
America is about to be tested in away we haven't before.

The best option is that Covid-19 hits, and loss of life is minimal.
The worse that happens is that it's a true pandemic and the economy TANKS, and there's nothing Biden, Bernie, or Trump can do to help short term.

Also, they still will not help people in substantial ways in not getting sick or tested, and possible job loss.

They can ALWAYS find money for War and rich people...
Always.

1.5 trillion remains a fraction of the cost of Medicare For All. It's kinda like accusing someone who had blood to donate of not giving organs.

Some of the problems in the response to Covid-19 are based on allocating finite supplies. We can't help people get tested because there is currently a limited number of tests in the US.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...elayed/607954/

There were bureaucratic hurdles, as it took a long time for labs to get Emergency Use Authorizations from the FDA in order to be allowed to begin testing. There were problems getting samples of the virus, partly due to the Chinese government's refusal to allow specimens outside of its borders. Many clinical labs did not have the capacity to do the necessary types of tests (lab-developed rather than to sample-to-lab; this is jargon I learned thirty seconds ago.) There were communication issues between various departments.

Chemicals were missing. There was a refusal to adopt tests from other countries, largely for bureaucratic reasons.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/o...ronavirus.html

A question never asked by those same people when it comes to tax cuts for the rich, militarily spending, war, corporate subsidies...

And yeah that is exactly what is going on with the elites.

Yes we absolutely know Universal Healthcare will cost less. We have every other modern nation as evidence.

Universal health care will cost less if you cut available services, but that's not the tradeoff that we're willing to take.

There are typically arguments in favor of the policies you don't like, which are still cheaper than Medicare For All would be. However, the other side having a flawed argument doesn't mean that you should embrace it as well. It's a bad thing that Trump openly doesn't care about the deficit; it's a bit like if Democrats decided to ignore global warming.

The 2009 flu pandemic was more disastrous than covid 19. I don't remember being out of tp back then though.

Apparently idiots are afraid Covid-19 will give them diarrhea.

https://twitter.com/ChristianCamara/...13782296449027

Manhattan Institute is another right wing propaganda mill. Like Cato or Hudson. They write papers with predecided conclusions.

So there's a response to the guy's questions somewhere?

[XPac]

A question never asked by those same people when it comes to tax cuts for the rich, militarily spending, war, corporate subsidies...

And yeah that is exactly what is going on with the elites.

Yes we absolutely know Universal Healthcare will cost less. We have every other modern nation as evidence.

Does every other nation with universal health care provide even a fraction of the service that private health care in the US provides? You're either going to have to spend a LOT more money, or ask americans to give up A LOT of the services they're getting from their current private insurance.

[The Overlord]

He can (and might) change his stance on issues to bring in Sander supporters if/when Sanders drops out BUT at this late in the game would anyone believe him? It's pretty obvious whatever he says is just damage control.

He'll do what he can, but fair or not I think he's banking on most progressives prefering him over Trump.

Except they could stay home or vote for a third party candidate.

If the centrists are going to mock and deride the Bernie supporters, what makes them so sure they will show up for Biden? They want it both ways, they want to mock Bernie supporters and then demand they vote for Biden in the general, seems like if you wanted the latter, you should not have done the former.

I would suggest any Bernie supporters in swing states should vote for Biden, but they are not duty bound do so. The centrists should be willing to compromise as well if they want a true unity ticket.

Does every other nation with universal health care provide even a fraction of the service that private health care in the US provides? You're either going to have to spend a LOT more money, or ask americans to give up A LOT of the services they're getting from their current private insurance.

And how many working poor Americans get to these wonderful services?

Also Canada spends less percentage of GDP then the US does, how is the current US system affordable?

[Tendrin]

Except they could stay home or vote for a third party candidate.

If the centrists are going to mock and deride the Bernie supporters, what makes them so sure they will show up for Biden? They want it both ways, they want to mock Bernie supporters and then demand they vote for Biden in the general, seems like if you wanted the latter, you should not have done the former.

I would suggest any Bernie supporters in swing states should vote for Biden, but they are not duty bound do so. The centrists should be willing to compromise as well if they want a true unity ticket.

Wait, I thought we weren't supposed to let 'mean tweets' stop us from doing what was 'right'?

[Kirby101]

1.5 trillion remains a fraction of the cost of Medicare For All. It's kinda like accusing someone who had blood to donate of not giving organs.

Some of the problems in the response to Covid-19 are based on allocating finite supplies. We can't help people get tested because there is currently a limited number of tests in the US.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...elayed/607954/

There were bureaucratic hurdles, as it took a long time for labs to get Emergency Use Authorizations from the FDA in order to be allowed to begin testing. There were problems getting samples of the virus, partly due to the Chinese government's refusal to allow specimens outside of its borders. Many clinical labs did not have the capacity to do the necessary types of tests (lab-developed rather than to sample-to-lab; this is jargon I learned thirty seconds ago.) There were communication issues between various departments.

Chemicals were missing. There was a refusal to adopt tests from other countries, largely for bureaucratic reasons.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/o...ronavirus.html

Universal health care will cost less if you cut available services, but that's not the tradeoff that we're willing to take.

There are typically arguments in favor of the policies you don't like, which are still cheaper than Medicare For All would be. However, the other side having a flawed argument doesn't mean that you should embrace it as well. It's a bad thing that Trump openly doesn't care about the deficit; it's a bit like if Democrats decided to ignore global warming.



Apparently idiots are afraid Covid-19 will give them diarrhea.

https://twitter.com/ChristianCamara/...13782296449027



So there's a response to the guy's questions somewhere?

I am talking about Universal Healthcare in general, not Sanders specific plan. And no you don't have to limit services. See; every other freaking country.

It's not Trump, your GOP has not given a **** about deficits since Reagan. They care about tax cuts for the rich.

[XPac]

Except they could stay home or vote for a third party candidate.

If the centrists are going to mock and deride the Bernie supporters, what makes them so sure they will show up for Biden? They want it both ways, they want to mock Bernie supporters and then demand they vote for Biden in the general, seems like if you wanted the latter, you should not have done the former.

I would suggest any Bernie supporters in swing states should vote for Biden, but they are not duty bound do so. The centrists should be willing to compromise as well if they want a true unity ticket.

Again, I think the gamble is that progressives will show up for Biden because that's the only way to get Trump out of the white house. Whether or not that ends up being true remains to be seen, but I think that's the idea.

I would agree that no progressive is duty bound to vote for Biden. But I would also argue anyone who doesn't even bother voting doesn't have the right to complain about the results of the election one way or the other.

[The Overlord]

Wait, I thought we weren't supposed to let 'mean tweets' stop us from doing what was 'right'?

The centrists were the ones trying to dismiss the Bernie movement because of a few mean people on Twitter. If the Bernie Bros are supposed to do the right thing and support Biden, why was your side so willing to cast them aside? Do you take them for granted?

Do you really want the vile, demon worshipping Bernie Bros to befoul the pure and noble Democratic party?

Sacramsam aside should the centrists try to compromise with the Bernie supporters to get their support or simply demand it?

[PwrdOn]

Fine, because if Trump wins, there is no after. (I supported Warren, but it's over and beating Trump is the ONLY priority)

This whole election is just one big slow moving train wreck, and in our heart of hearts, we know exactly what's going to happen. The Democratic party convinced its base to coalesce around the most bland, generic candidate it could think of under the premise that this would maximize the chances of beating Trump, throwing away practically every left wing policy objective in the process in favor of a guy who claimed that he would veto Medicare for All and that nothing would fundamentally change. But come the general, those precious Midwestern swing voters will stick with Trump to the great shock and dismay of all, and the uninspiring message will depress turnout leading to the Democrats getting slaughtered down ballot, which the Republicans will take as a mandate to enact every disastrous policy they were afraid to go all in on this term. Biden simply isn't going to beat Trump, at the end of the day the candidate still matters and there is no "there" there with him. Oh, I'm sure all those talking heads doing a victory lap right now over Sanders' perceived demise will still be fine after the election, and potentially much better off since they can continue with that resistance schtick for another four ineffectual years, but as for the rest of us, who the hell knows.

[XPac]

Except they could stay home or vote for a third party candidate.

If the centrists are going to mock and deride the Bernie supporters, what makes them so sure they will show up for Biden? They want it both ways, they want to mock Bernie supporters and then demand they vote for Biden in the general, seems like if you wanted the latter, you should not have done the former.

I would suggest any Bernie supporters in swing states should vote for Biden, but they are not duty bound do so. The centrists should be willing to compromise as well if they want a true unity ticket.



And how many working poor Americans get to these wonderful services?

Also Canada spends less percentage of GDP then the US does, how is the current US system affordable?

THere's a LOT of americans that don't get those services. But my point is that it's very likely that some americans won't get the same level of service they do from their current private insurance... and that's going to make universal health care here a much tougher sell.

[Kirby101]

The centrists were the ones trying to dismiss the Bernie movement because of a few mean people on Twitter. If the Bernie Bros are supposed to do the right thing and support Biden, was your side so willing to cast them aside?

Do you really want the vile, demon worshipping Bernie Bros to befoul the pure and noble Democratic party?

Sacramsam aside should the centrists try to compromise with the Bernie supporters to get their support or simply demand it?

I for one would love Biden to move towards Bernie on issues. When it was obvious Biden was going to win, the first thing I asked was how to get Sanders supporters to help. But no matter what, we must beat Trump. At some point they will need to stop attacking Biden as if he were the enemy.

[The Overlord]

Again, I think the gamble is that progressives will show up for Biden because that's the only way to get Trump out of the white house. Whether or not that ends up being true remains to be seen, but I think that's the idea.

I would agree that no progressive is duty bound to vote for Biden. But I would also argue anyone who doesn't even bother voting doesn't have the right to complain about the results of the election one way or the other.

Someone could vote for a third party or spoil their ballots, they could vote and not vote for Biden and still have the right to complain.

Its ultimately Biden's job to get elected, not anyone else's. He ran on electability, now he can prove it.

[Kirby101]

This whole election is just one big slow moving train wreck, and in our heart of hearts, we know exactly what's going to happen. The Democratic party convinced its base to coalesce around the most bland, generic candidate it could think of under the premise that this would maximize the chances of beating Trump, throwing away practically every left wing policy objective in the process in favor of a guy who claimed that he would veto Medicare for All and that nothing would fundamentally change. But come the general, those precious Midwestern swing voters will stick with Trump to the great shock and dismay of all, and the uninspiring message will depress turnout leading to the Democrats getting slaughtered down ballot, which the Republicans will take as a mandate to enact every disastrous policy they were afraid to go all in on this term. Biden simply isn't going to beat Trump, at the end of the day the candidate still matters and there is no "there" there with him. Oh, I'm sure all those talking heads doing a victory lap right now over Sanders' perceived demise will still be fine after the election, and potentially much better off since they can continue with that resistance schtick for another four ineffectual years, but as for the rest of us, who the hell knows.

You are very dismissive of the majority of Democratic voters. Maybe that is why some aren't so keen on Sanders. And the 2018 election contradicts you on those swing voters. You think they are going to Trump now? Really?

[numberthirty]

Someone could vote for a third party or spoil their ballots, they could vote and not vote for Biden and still have the right to complain.

Its ultimately Biden's job to get elected, not anyone else's. He ran on electability, now he can prove it.

Which goes double when the problems from last time out were plain as day.

If you screw that up the exact same way twice?

It's no one's fault but yours.