All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[Kirby101]

Someone could vote for a third party or spoil their ballots, they could vote and not vote for Biden and still have the right to complain.

Its ultimately Biden's job to get elected, not anyone else's. He ran on electability, now he can prove it.

This is true, I hope he can.

[XPac]

Someone could vote for a third party or spoil their ballots, they could vote and not vote for Biden and still have the right to complain.

Its ultimately Biden'a job to get elected, not anyone else's. He ran on electability, now he can prove it.

That's the point though.. he IS proving to be the more electable candide by winning more states and getting more endorsements. People are getting behind him moreso than Sanders.

Whether or not he's elactable enough to beat Trump is another matter entirely (again I think if Trump loses, it'll be more credited to the corona virus than Biden), but in the least he's proving more capable of bringing democrats together and behind him than any other candidate left on the field.

[PwrdOn]

I for one would love Biden to move towards Bernie on issues. When it was obvious Biden was going to win, the first thing I asked was how to get Sanders supporters to help. But no matter what, we must beat Trump. At some point they will need to stop attacking Biden as if he were the enemy.

That's just not how politics works, if you offer someone your unconditional support, there's no reason why they would need to accommodate you on policy because they no longer need to bother trying to earn your vote. And laying off of Biden now won't make him perform any better in the general, because he's still a fundamental garbage candidate and pumping him up pretending he's some kind of visionary leader who will save the country is just delusional and won't really help anyway.

[The Overlord]

I for one would love Biden to move towards Bernie on issues. When it was obvious Biden was going to win, the first thing I asked was how to get Sanders supporters to help. But no matter what, we must beat Trump. At some point they will need to stop attacking Biden as if he were the enemy.

Well he is going to have to do something, if he just assumes Bernie supporters will vote for him because he is not Trump, he could in for a shock.

Also maybe the centrists on this board should not so quick to dismiss Bernie supporters as sexist, racist trolls, if they actually want their help in the general.

The electability argument is a primary argument, it means far less in the general. Also he has to start taking this campaign seriously, no more bizzare lies that can easily be disproved, no more bizzare insults for voters who question him, no more telling people to vote for the other guy.

Also he should put in assurances in that he will put forward left wing policies and just flip on his promisesif he wins, he better pick an impressive VP, not another Tim Kaine.

He does not have Obama's charisma and people think he just wants to go back to the old status quo. He needs to prove himself far more than Obama did in the general.

[XPac]

That's just not how politics works, if you offer someone your unconditional support, there's no reason why they would need to accommodate you on policy because they no longer need to bother trying to earn your vote. And laying off of Biden now won't make him perform any better in the general, because he's still a fundamental garbage candidate and pumping him up pretending he's some kind of visionary leader who will save the country is just delusional and won't really help anyway.

I don't think they need to pump up Biden to be any sort of visionary leader who will save the country.. I think pretty much everyone knows he's not. They just need to prove to the progressives that's he's better for them than Trump. And that's actually a fairly low bar to meet.

[The Overlord]

That's the point though.. he IS proving to be the more electable candide by winning more states and getting more endorsements. People are getting behind him moreso than Sanders.

Whether or not he's elactable enough to beat Trump is another matter entirely (again I think if Trump loses, it'll be more credited to the corona virus than Biden), but in the least he's proving more capable of bringing democrats together and behind him than any other candidate left on the field.

Winning the primary and winning the general are 2 different things, no one is going to get out his way like Buttiege did in the primary and Trump will be way harder on Biden than anyone in the primary. There is no kids gloves in the general.

Electable means he beats Trump, if he doesn't win against Trump, that argument was BS.

[The Overlord]

I don't think they need to pump up Biden to be any sort of visionary leader who will save the country.. I think pretty much everyone knows he's not. They just need to prove to the progressives that's he's better for them than Trump. And that's actually a fairly low bar to meet.

Or they could say screw it and stay home or vote for Jill Stein.

Biden wants their vote? He will have to earn it, IMO.

Here's a start, how about Biden stops talking about how marijuana is a "gateway drug".

[XPac]

Or they could say screw it and stay home or vote for Jill Stein.

Biden wants their vote? He will have to earn it, IMO.

Here's a start, how about Biden stops talking about how marijuana is a "gateway drug".

If he hasn't earnted it by now, he won't... that's the reality of the situation.

Which isn't to say he won't try and say whatever he can to lure in progressives while still keeping his base happy and at least attempting to bring in some conservatives... but at this point it's just PR and everyone knows it. He's no newb to politics... he has a record, and that will tell a voter what they need to know moreso than anything else we will hear from him between now and November. Anything outside of his established record is frankly him just trying to con you into thinking he might be something he's not to get your vote. And thats not a knock against Joe... it's simply what politicians do.

So that's either enough to get you to support him in beating Trump or it's not.

[PwrdOn]

I don't think they need to pump up Biden to be any sort of visionary leader who will save the country.. I think pretty much everyone knows he's not. They just need to prove to the progressives that's he's better for them than Trump. And that's actually a fairly low bar to meet.

I think this whole primary process has sufficiently demoralized enough progressives to either stay home or vote third party in the general, definitely more than took that route in 2016 at any rate. You can only be fed so many uninspiring, milquetoast centrists before you just sort of check out and give up on the party and the electoral process entirely, and I think Biden will be that breaking point for a lot of people. I'm sure we'll be blamed if Trump wins again, but at this point it's hard to get too worked up about that either.

If he hasn't earnted it by now, he won't... that's the reality of the situation.

Which isn't to say he won't try and say whatever he can to lure in progressives while still keeping his base happy and at least attempting to bring in some conservatives... but at this point it's just PR and everyone knows it. He's no newb to politics... he has a record, and that will tell a voter what they need to know moreso than anything else we will hear from him between now and November. Anything outside of his established record is frankly him just trying to con you into thinking he might be something he's not to get your vote. And thats not a knock against Joe... it's simply what politicians do.

So that's either enough to get you to support him in beating Trump or it's not.

His record is hardly a positive one, this is why his campaign has been doing just about everything it can to downplay it and just portray him as Generic Democrat 20.20. He has basically racked up all those primary votes because he ran on being Obama's sidekick for 8 years. Unfortunately, that pitch won't work in the general because southern black voters are irrelevant, while suburban whites he's counting on are sort of ambivalent towards Obama at best. Maybe he'll pivot toward portraying himself as a guy who can compromise with Republicans to get legislation passed, but everyone knows that won't work with the modern GOP, so who could he possibly fool with that?

[The Overlord]

If he hasn't earnted it by now, he won't... that's the reality of the situation.

Which isn't to say he won't try and say whatever he can to lure in progressives while still keeping his base happy and at least attempting to bring in some conservatives... but at this point it's just PR and everyone knows it. He's no newb to politics... he has a record, and that will tell a voter what they need to know moreso than anything else we will hear from him between now and November. Anything outside of his established record is frankly him just trying to con you into thinking he might be something he's not to get your vote. And thats not a knock against Joe... it's simply what politicians do.

So that's either enough to get you to support him in beating Trump or it's not.

The problem is when he says stuff like "marijuana is a gateway drug" it's like he is trying to scare young people from the polls. Jeez Joe, can you put in a minimal effort not scare people away. I hope for his sake the boomers that voted for him the primary are enough make up for the young people he is trying to drive away from the polls.

[Lord Falcon]

That's just not how politics works, if you offer someone your unconditional support, there's no reason why they would need to accommodate you on policy because they no longer need to bother trying to earn your vote. And laying off of Biden now won't make him perform any better in the general, because he's still a fundamental garbage candidate and pumping him up pretending he's some kind of visionary leader who will save the country is just delusional and won't really help anyway.

Name a moderate you would be happy to support.

[Lord Falcon]

You are very dismissive of the majority of Democratic voters. Maybe that is why some aren't so keen on Sanders. And the 2018 election contradicts you on those swing voters. You think they are going to Trump now? Really?

I'm just...my first reaction is anger, but after that I'm also kinda sad. Pwrdon has nothing better or more compelling going on his life than to wail on an online forum about how Biden has doomed us all. I'm irritated that he takes the time to vary his posts and think of reasons he believes in unlike a troll. But he's just...pitiful. He will never be content. He will never stop hating. Biden is merely the convenient outlet. If Harris or Buttigieg or even Warren had won, we'd be seeing the same crap.

[TheManInBlack]

You do realize that Canada and Western European countries spend a smaller percentage of their GDP on health care than the US does? How is the current system affordable?

I'm probably going to regret engaging, but here it goes. I grew up in the US and lived there until I was 26, then moved to Canada (I'm 38 now.) Compared to the US system the Canadian system is absolute trash and it's a classic example of getting what you pay for.

My 7 year old son had to wait a year and a half to see a pediatrician because they barely have any, and when I finally got to see him, my wife and I were rushed out in less than 15 minutes with no resolution because there were too many people to see. We don't live out in the boonies, we're in a fairly populated area with what's considered decent healthcare coverage. One of my friends had to wait almost 2 years for an MRI and 3 years before seeing a Gastroenterologist. By the time she got the call, she'd forgotten that she even got the referral. Many people don't have 'family doctors' because there simply aren't enough, so they must go to a local 'free clinic' where they will (eventually) be seen by a doctor who doesn't know them and will rush them out as quickly as possible.

Compare that to my parents, still living in the US with fairly standard lower middle class insurance. My mom recently died of breast cancer, but the level of care she received for years was astonishing for my Canadian wife to see. Even for me after being used to the Canadian system. My dad was able to get a dermatologist appointment within weeks where it would take up to 6 months or more here and they shuffle you out in less than half an hour. I should note that my dad (a died-in wool progressive who regularly marches in rallies and canvasses for the democrats) was so appalled by the Canadian system that he did a complete 180 on supporting government healthcare. If you have experienced both systems, it's almost impossible to want to go with government-controlled healthcare.

I'll also note that dentists, optometrists, and pharmaceuticals are not covered up here like many Americans think we are, and we need health insurance for them on top of the high taxes we pay for 'universal wait times.'

[The Overlord]

I'm probably going to regret engaging, but here it goes. I grew up in the US and lived there until I was 26, then moved to Canada (I'm 38 now.) Compared to the US system the Canadian system is absolute trash and it's a classic example of getting what you pay for.

My 7 year old son had to wait a year and a half to see a pediatrician because they barely have any, and when I finally got to see him, my wife and I were rushed out in less than 15 minutes with no resolution because there were too many people to see. We don't live out in the boonies, we're in a fairly populated area with what's considered decent healthcare coverage. One of my friends had to wait almost 2 years for an MRI and 3 years before seeing a Gastroenterologist. By the time she got the call, she'd forgotten that she even got the referral. Many people don't have 'family doctors' because there simply aren't enough, so they must go to a local 'free clinic' where they will (eventually) be seen by a doctor who doesn't know them and will rush them out as quickly as possible.

Compare that to my parents, still living in the US with fairly standard lower middle class insurance. My mom recently died of breast cancer, but the level of care she received for years was astonishing for my Canadian wife to see. Even for me after being used to the Canadian system. My dad was able to get a dermatologist appointment within weeks where it would take up to 6 months or more here and they shuffle you out in less than half an hour. I should note that my dad (a died-in wool progressive who regularly marches in rallies and canvasses for the democrats) was so appalled by the Canadian system that he did a complete 180 on supporting government healthcare. If you have experienced both systems, it's almost impossible to want to go with government-controlled healthcare.

I'll also note that dentists, optometrists, and pharmaceuticals are not covered up here like many Americans think we are, and we need health insurance for them on top of the high taxes we pay for 'universal wait times.'

I live in Canada as well and have never had problems with our health care system and would not trade it for the American one. This is why anecdotal evidence is not good for political arguments.

My father had an emergency procedure done a couple of years ago, he was seen right away and it went fine.

Meanwhile, how many poor Canadians do you think cross the border to get care?

[TheManInBlack]

I live in Canada as well and have never had problems with our health care system and would not trade it for the American one. This is why anecdotal evidence is not good for political arguments.

Many Canadians feel that way because they never experienced American healthcare, which is the only reason I felt the need to weigh in. Because I have extensive experience with both. And the wait times are a fact. Don't take my word for it, use Google and see what wait times are like in Ontario for these specialists.

Edited to note: it looks like wait times for MRIs have been significantly reduced since the incident I mentioned above, but are still much longer than wait times in the US.

My father had an emergency procedure done a couple of years ago, he was seen right away and it went fine.

Emergency care is given precedence. It's still nowhere near as good, but the wait times are indeed very low. It's people without dire immediate emergencies that fall through the cracks consistently. That's the biggest problem. And god help you if you get a problem that's rated low-priority. (which, incidentally, leads to more emergencies because there is a lack of proper prevention before said emergency.)

Meanwhile, how many poor Canadians do you think cross the border to get care?

Surely very few, because they didn't buy US insurance like people in the US do (why would they?). But folks who are not insured in the US with the means to pay go to the US frequently. Because the quality of care is much better.

Does every other nation with universal health care provide even a fraction of the service that private health care in the US provides? You're either going to have to spend a LOT more money, or ask americans to give up A LOT of the services they're getting from their current private insurance.

This here. Most Americans advocating for government healthcare simply do not understand that the quality of care will go way down and wait times will shoot up exponentially.