All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[numberthirty]

Then fine, the evil Bernie Bros are children and should be punished by being sent their rooms for all of November? Okay. Maybe put holy water on the voting booth to burn the hands of the vile Bernie Bros.

Also I live in Canada, so I am not voting regardless.

It seems like your version of party unity is to say everyone should shut up and submit completely to the Biden side, that sounds like submission, not unity. How are your insults supposed to encourage party unity?

Is it the people's job to vote for Biden or Biden's job to convince them to vote for him?

You can't have it both ways, you can't tar Bernie supporters as irredeemable sexist, racist monsters and then kindly ask for their vote in November.

Are you going to swallow your pride for the sake of party unity or keep tarring the entire Bernie movement with the Bernie Bros brush?

You've got to realize that looking for an actually serious answer here is a waste of your time.

Since the reality that this is being done for "Fun..." has come up, the disconnect between that Sanders needed to earn support while it is on you to vote for Biden is because it was never actually serious to start with.

It's being done for "Kicks"(or whatever).

[Steel Inquisitor]

You've got to realize that looking for an actually serious answer here is a waste of your time.

Since the reality that this is being done for "Fun..." has come up, the disconnect between that Sanders needed to earn support while it is on you to vote for Biden is because it was never actually serious to start with.

It's being done for "Kicks"(or whatever).

The choice for the next president is either Biden (D) or Trump (R) and not voting or voting third party is not an option. Part of fighting on the left is voting, that's how transfer of power takes place. There is no "sitting out" elections, Trump hurts everybody the longer he's in office.

Edit: Where did this "fun" idea come from, I looked at the previous page and there's nothing there.

[aja_christopher]

The choice for the next president is either Biden (D) or Trump (R) and not voting or voting third party is not an option. Part of fighting on the left is voting, that's how transfer of power takes place. There is no "sitting out" elections, Trump hurts everybody the longer he's in office.

Edit: Where did this "fun" idea come from, I looked at the previous page and there's nothing there.

They like avoiding the fact that many "centrists" have already said they'd vote for Sanders if he were the Democratic nominee.

Sanders problem isn't "Biden" or the "establishment" (i.e. black voters) -- it's that he doesn't mobilize voters like he claimed he would.

Both Hillary and Obama learned a long time ago that you can't depend on "progressives" to deliver wins -- until that changes, it is what it is.

[The Overlord]

I didn't insult anyone -- if I wanted to insult you, you'd know it.

You just want to argue and I don't have time to waste on that -- spend less time arguing and more time getting people to vote for your "ideals".

Moderate Democrats won the midterms in 2018 -- they can stand on their record.

When Sanders and progressives can do the same they won't have to resort to picking fights on online forums because they can't win elections.

As for your question -- assuming Biden wins the nomination, people should vote for the candidate they prefer in the general election.

If you support Trump more than Biden, then that says more about you than it does Biden.

And -- if you prefer to sit out because "both sides" then don't complain when progressives lose more SC justices and get four more years of Trump.

Not going to pretend it's complicated when it isn't -- support for Sanders does not mean you should destroy everything else in the process.

You wanted it both ways, you say that Bernie supporters are sexist and racist and then decry when they criticize other Democratic candidates. It seems like you think criticizing every candidate is bad, except for Bernie, whom you seem to think is fair game, which is it?

Also I live in Canada, so I can't vote regardless.

Bernie Sanders likely cannot win at this point, but he should not give away his support for free, the price of unity will be compromise, Biden should make concessions to Bernie Sanders in exchange for his support. If Biden doesn't want to, I wonder serious he is about winning.

Are you willing to accept compromise and concessions as the price of party unity? You do not get everything you want in life, but you should never accept nothing.

Because his whole electability argument will mean nothing in the general, he will have to run on an actual platform, rather than electability and nothing else.

[numberthirty]

The choice for the next president is either Biden (D) or Trump (R) and not voting or voting third party is not an option. Part of fighting on the left is voting, that's how transfer of power takes place. There is no "sitting out" elections, Trump hurts everybody the longer he's in office.

Edit: Where did this "fun" idea come from, I looked at the previous page and there's nothing there.

Not on the last page(though it is in the thread...)

If you absolutely want to know, I could probably dig it up and pm you.

That said, it ain't going to be very far up there on my "To Do..." list.

[Mister Mets]

The 2009 flu pandemic was more disastrous than covid 19. I don't remember being out of tp back then though.

Why do you think it was more disastrous?

Are you comparing the entire duration of H1N1 or comparing the first weeks?

https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...)-flu-pandemic

Why do I think it doesn't cost that in any other country?

Is it available in other countries?

I didn't insult anyone -- if I wanted to insult you, you'd know it.

You just want to argue and I don't have time to waste on that -- spend less time arguing and more time getting people to vote for your "ideals".

Moderate Democrats won the midterms in 2018 -- they can stand on their record.

When Sanders and progressives can do the same they won't have to resort to picking fights on online forums because they can't win elections.

As for your question -- assuming Biden wins the nomination, people should vote for the candidate they prefer in the general election.

If you support Trump more than Biden, then that says more about you than it does Biden.

And -- if you prefer to sit out because "both sides" then don't complain when progressives lose more SC justices and get four more years of Trump.

Not going to pretend it's complicated when it isn't -- support for Sanders does not mean you should destroy everything else in the process.

To add to this, if anyone running on Sanders' platforms had been elected Governor at Age 50 of a swing state (Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, Florida, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, etc.) at any point in the last 20 years and governed competently, they would be an immediate presidential contender.

It hasn't happened yet.

It might at some point in the near future. John Fetterman was a Bernie Bro favorite as a small town mayor running for Senate in Pennsylvania. He has since been elected Lieutenant Governor, positioning himself to be the favorite in competitive statewide races.

[aja_christopher]

You wanted it both ways, you complain about Bernie supporters being sexist and racist and then decry when they criticize other Democratic candidates.

You're lying and I'm not going to waste time arguing with you.

[XPac]

Its called sarcasm. And your insults do nothing to promote party unity. It seems your pride is more important than party unity. Heck I guess pride matters more than beating Trump eh? Because it seems belittling Bernie supporters is more important to you than getting their support, it seems like do not want them in your coalition.

And your comparison of Bernie supporters to children is similar to Hillary comparing someone wanting Medicare For All to a child wanting a pony, just a way to dismiss legitimate concerns.

And guess what, Clinton ran the "I am not Trump" campaign and she lost, so Biden better have a better plan than that.

And you keep on avoiding this question, is it the job of Bernie supporters to vote for Biden or is it Biden's job to convince them to vote for him?

The thing is, if Biden hasn't convinced you by this point to vote for him he's not going to. We KNOW his record... that's what you should be basing your decision on. Anything he says between now and November outside of that is just spin to convince you to vote for him. His record, for better or for worse, speaks for itself.

If you look at that and genuinely believe he shouldn't be in the WH anymore than Trump then DON'T vote for him. But if you look at his record and genuinely believe that he's the better option, then DO. Ultimately it boils down to that.

[worstblogever]

On this date in 2015, "Crazy/Stupid Republican of the Day" ran a profile of Jase Bolger, the former Speaker of the House of the Michigan House of Representatives who once ordered a female Democratic legislator silenced for saying the word "vagina" during a debate on abortion, as if she had used profanity. That was only slightly more sexist than the time he posed for a photo with fellow GOP members with a fashion magazines to show the know what their female constituents want. He also supported wasteful and unsuccessful legislation such as Michigan's "Emergency Manager" law, to begin drug testing welfare recipients, altering the collective bargaining rights of public school teachers, and , creating stricter Voter ID laws to disenfranchise voters and keep voter turnout low. Hell, his efforts to rig elections got so out of hand, he wanted to pass a law to change how Michigan awards electoral votes in the presidential elections to split them and see if he could help Mitt Romney game the 2012 elections. But what really crossed the line and brought about his political downfall was when he was investigated for election fraud for offering a man $1,000 to run as a Democrat, and then getting the actual Democrat on the ballot to switch parties right at the deadline. That scandal put a fork in his miserable career.

On this date in 2016, “Crazy/Stupid Republican of the Day” posted a profile of Rick Brinkley, who we could have simply profiled for his support of Oklahoma's "Birther Bill" as well as Personhood legislation, but he particularly stood out for being massively corrupt. Brinkley embezzled $1.8 million from the Better Business Bureau. He got caught on five counts of wire fraud and one count of filing a false tax return, and plead guilty, and will likely spend the rest of his life in federal prison. Brinkley was apparently using the stolen money to pay off his mortgage, credit card bills, and numerous gambling debts accrued at local casinos. Being a white collar criminal kind of destroyed his career.

On this date in 2017, "Crazy/Stupid Republican of the Day" profiled former Nebraska State Senator Bill Kintner, whose office was practically wallpapered with photos of former President Ronald Reagan and whose greatest achievement as a Republican politician was believing enough in the Agenda 21 Conspiracy Theory that he decided to sponsor legislation to try to block its implementation in Nebraska. That bill was best summarized by fellow legislator Ernie Chambers as "in the category of those people who wear tin-foil hats for protection from I don't know what." Kintner was a hardliner on abortion, believing life starts at conception, and during his time in office, voting against measures that would have raised the minimum wage (during the greatest period of income inequality in the United States in almost a century), voted against a measure that would have prevented wage discrimination based on gender, and voted against a bipartisan effort by the Nebraska state legislature to repeal the death penalty in the state. It wasn’t shocking to see another Republican guy who’s opposed to equal pay for women and wants to ban all abortion and birth control pills volunteering his opinions about the difference between the sexes, and summarizing women as being “crazy” and impossible for anyone to figure out. I mean, that’s just standard misogyny. When news broke, however, that Bill Kintner was involved in a sex scandal, well, he was a bit more toxic for the Nebraska GOP. Sure, participating in some cybersex online might have some people argue that he wasn’t actually cheating on his wife, and honoring good Christian values, but the story got more complicated than that… Almost immediately after Kintner was done sharing a good ol’ tug & rub on Skype with his new pal from the Ivory Coast, he was immediately blackmailed by his online sex buddy, who wanted $4500 in hush money. Kintner knew he done goofed up, and spent almost a year trying to keep the story out of the news. Not just because he was running around on his wife, but because he was also stupid enough to have used the laptop computer issued to him as a member of the state legislature for his extramarital shenanigans, which added a layer of ethical impropriety to the marital kind. For almost a year, the Nebraska GOP was calling for Kintner to resign from the state legislature, but alas, he was determined he could survive the controversy, claiming it was a “witch hunt” against him. And then, during the Women’s March in January, Kintner thought it would be a good idea to respond on social media to photos of some of the marchers holding up signs that said, “You can’t grab my p***y” that they had nothing to worry about, because they weren’t attractive enough to sexually assault. And with that, the full weight of the Nebraska GOP’s pressure finally caused Kintner to give up the ghost and leave office. Hopefully Kintner didn’t throw his back out leaving the job with a box full of Reagan photos.

[Mister Mets]

The centrists were the ones trying to dismiss the Bernie movement because of a few mean people on Twitter. If the Bernie Bros are supposed to do the right thing and support Biden, why was your side so willing to cast them aside? Do you take them for granted?

Do you really want the vile, demon worshipping Bernie Bros to befoul the pure and noble Democratic party?

Sacramsam aside should the centrists try to compromise with the Bernie supporters to get their support or simply demand it?

Do you think the only reason centrists dislike the Bernie Bros is a few mean people on twitter?

This whole election is just one big slow moving train wreck, and in our heart of hearts, we know exactly what's going to happen. The Democratic party convinced its base to coalesce around the most bland, generic candidate it could think of under the premise that this would maximize the chances of beating Trump, throwing away practically every left wing policy objective in the process in favor of a guy who claimed that he would veto Medicare for All and that nothing would fundamentally change. But come the general, those precious Midwestern swing voters will stick with Trump to the great shock and dismay of all, and the uninspiring message will depress turnout leading to the Democrats getting slaughtered down ballot, which the Republicans will take as a mandate to enact every disastrous policy they were afraid to go all in on this term. Biden simply isn't going to beat Trump, at the end of the day the candidate still matters and there is no "there" there with him. Oh, I'm sure all those talking heads doing a victory lap right now over Sanders' perceived demise will still be fine after the election, and potentially much better off since they can continue with that resistance schtick for another four ineffectual years, but as for the rest of us, who the hell knows.

I doubt Biden supporters think Sanders would be more likely to win.

There is legitimate reason to think the guy consistently beating Trump in general election polls will be able to do so in 2020, and take some swing states with him.

Which goes double when the problems from last time out were plain as day.

If you screw that up the exact same way twice?

It's no one's fault but yours.

It does depend on what the screw-up was last time. Was it that they ran a centrist? Was it that they ran an individual with many negatives? Was it that they ran on the most progressive platform ever, which gave centrists more reason to back Trump?

[The Overlord]

You're lying and I'm not going to waste time arguing with you.

No I am not and seems you want to take Bernie supporters for granted.

Again this "Bernie Bros" argument has been made in bad faith so often that think it was used to avoid discussing actual issues.

[worstblogever]

It was in both 2018, as well as 2019, that “Crazy/Stupid Republican of the Day” first profiled John Ragan, a member of the Tennessee House of Representatives first elected in… yes, the 2010 Tea Party Wave. While in 2012, he barely survived re-election with 51% of the vote, in 2016, he won re-election to a fourth term with 66% of the vote. CSGOPOTD had John Ragan on its radar for quite some time, after he made himself a bit of a laughing stock back in 2013 for sponsoring his “Don’t Say Gay” bill in Tennessee, HB 1332. While it would have been enough of an eyebrow-raising piece of legislation for its desire to forbid public school teachers from saying “gay, lesbian, transgender, or bisexual” in classrooms as a piece of legislation from ALEC, but that Ragan amended the bill a few times in Tennessee to change its language requiring teachers to report gay students to their parents for mental health counseling (which is messed up enough because homosexuality stopped being classified as a mental disorder four decades earlier in 1973). After being hit with widespread criticism that he was anti-gay, Ragan released a statement that his legislation was “pro-mental health”, only drawing the ire of the LGBTQ community even more. It of course, died in committee every time he tried to get it passed. In 2014, Ragan began speaking out against gay couples that he felt were leaving Tennessee to get married out of state to come back home and enjoy cheaper insurance premiums as married couples. Apparently, that’s the only reason same sex couples wanted to be married, in his bigoted eyes. As of 2017, Ragan hasn’t mellowed out much, sponsoring legislation in at the start of the new session to try and limit the terms “mother and father” to exist only in households with opposite sex parents in an end-around to try and argue against gay adoption.

He also has sponsored a bill that would require those on work visa to have their driver’s licenses label them as “alien” so law enforcement could more easily identify them as immigrants or undocumented immigrants. While several balked at the term “alien” being used, they also pointed out that expiration dates on Tennessee driver’s licenses already expire to coincide with the expiration of their work visas. John Ragan wasn’t going to let that fact change his opinion, instead invoking 9/11 as the justification for his anti-immigrant legislation. When he failed to whip up support by invoking the tragedy, he finally pulled his legislation. Ragan’s overall voting record is a hot bed of nuttery, including support voter GOP voter suppression bills, his co-sponsorship of HJR 587, a resolution against the United Nations Agenda 21 treaty, for fears from hard-right conspiracy theorists that it’s a plot to establish global domination, and his vote for HB 3808, a bill written to gather “abortion statistics” that made many critics realize the data could help identify women going to clinics to seek abortions. He co-sponsored the GOP’s attempt to block the Medicaid Expansion in Tennessee, and voted for bills to prevent Civil War monuments from being renamed on multiple occasions.

John Ragan was, sadly, re-elected in 2018 with 61% of the vote. He has returned to work in Nashville to do… what else? Attack the rights of LGBTQ people, this time sponsoring legislation that critics have noted sounds a hell of a lot like he’s trying to get transgender citizens arrested on indecent exposure charges for using a public bathroom. That and hosting town halls where he will tell a gay man why he and his husband shouldn’t be allowed to adopt, or the mother of a transgender youth should be denied taking hormonal treatments that would block puberty.

To that we would like to say… what an ***hole.

[Gray Lensman]

So your takeaway from this is that you now sympathize with all those people who can't afford insurance and couldn't even get treated for basic issues, never mind the kind of stuff you're describing, right?

My takeaway is that you are eager to play gotcha with hyperbole after reading this. Call me when you finally run out of straw.

[aja_christopher]

Why do you think it was more disastrous?

Are you comparing the entire duration of H1N1 or comparing the first weeks?

https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...)-flu-pandemic

Is it available in other countries?

To add to this, if anyone running on Sanders' platforms had been elected Governor at Age 50 of a swing state (Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, Florida, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, etc.) at any point in the last 20 years and governed competently, they would be an immediate presidential contender.

It hasn't happened yet.

It might at some point in the near future. John Fetterman was a Bernie Bro favorite as a small town mayor running for Senate in Pennsylvania. He has since been elected Lieutenant Governor, positioning himself to be the favorite in competitive statewide races.

Progressives are constantly making the argument that they are better suited to lead the party but they have yet to back it up with votes nationwide.

I consistently point out how I dislike your hypotheticals and I think the same applies in this situation with regards to "progressive" politics.

As always -- I'll believe it when I see it.

Texas will likely eventually go the way of California but I'll never doubt the ability of Republicans to find a way to cheat their way to victory.

Because that's what I've seen far more than progressives winning elections -- along with Republicans blocking progressive legislation in Congress.

Then the progressives attack Democrats for allegedly doing nothing instead of the Republicans who are blocking said "progress".

[numberthirty]

...

It does depend on what the screw-up was last time. Was it that they ran a centrist? Was it that they ran an individual with many negatives? Was it that they ran on the most progressive platform ever, which gave centrists more reason to back Trump?

The main problem(which was plain as day...) was incredibly simple.

You had an eventual nominee who had gone out of their way to be antagonistic during a primary decide that they didn't need to make any sort of a real effort to deal with that during the General.

In addition, there were a lot of "First Day"/"Kindergarten"-level flubs(cracking jokes about wiping a server with a cloth/apparently not canvasing Wisconsin/Anthony Weiner being anywhere near any of it) that are just shy of mind blowing.

Getting the basics right is what needs to happen this time out.