All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[Tendrin]

Well you know after the Civil War we tried to peacefully redistribute land from slaveholders to freemen, except that it turned out the plantation owners weren't willing to go quietly into the night and used their still considerable socioeconomic clout to start a campaign of racial terror that eventually led to the collapse of Reconstruction, imposition of Jim Crow, and the return of most former slaves to virtual bondage under peonage or convict leasing schemes. And the consequences of that failure are still with us to this day. You really think that if we had just lined up all those bastards and shot them, that things wouldn't have turned out much better?

These are very revealing posts. I encourage you to continue making them while thinking you're a very moral person and not showing the depths of monstrousness that some kinds of certainty can cause you to sink to.

The failure of reconstruction is on shared white racism, not on our unwillingness to line up 'the right people' and shoot them all.

[Mister Mets]

Well you know after the Civil War we tried to peacefully redistribute land from slaveholders to freemen, except that it turned out the plantation owners weren't willing to go quietly into the night and used their still considerable socioeconomic clout to start a campaign of racial terror that eventually led to the collapse of Reconstruction, imposition of Jim Crow, and the return of most former slaves to virtual bondage under peonage or convict leasing schemes. And the consequences of that failure are still with us to this day. You really think that if we had just lined up all those bastards and shot them, that things wouldn't have turned out much better?



Federal troops were used during Reconstruction to protect freemen, as long as that lasted anyway, and also were instrumental in integrating schools to protect students from racist local police and militia.

You're providing examples outside my lifetime. In the modern era, under what circumstances should surplus military vehicles be used to protect the lives of the poor, where you think they currently wouldn't?

And how do you give them this power without also giving it to authorities you disagree with? If one locality has a progressive mayor and an enlightened police chief, how do you give them expanded power to use deadly force in a way that couldn't be used in another locality with a far-right mayor and likeminded police chief?

How do you give power to President Sanders and Attorney General Larry Krasner in a way that couldn't be exploited by President Mike Pence and Attorney General Chris Christie a few years later?

[PwrdOn]

These are very revealing posts. I encourage you to continue making them while thinking you're a very moral person and not showing the depths of monstrousness that some kinds of certainty can cause you to sink to.

The failure of reconstruction is on shared white racism, not on our unwillingness to line up 'the right people' and shoot them all.

Those two things are deeply intertwined though, the reason that Reconstruction failed is because too many Union soldiers felt more sympathy for the defeated Confederates than for the freed slaves, and the former slaveowning class was able to exploit this sentiment to cast themselves as the victims and be let off the hook for their crimes and eventually return to power. And this sort of applies in every such situation throughout history, those with power and privilege won't simply give those up without a fight, and even after they have lost, they will use every dirty trick in the book to poison the well and undermine any safeguards we put in place, just on the off chance that this might get them their old position back. Hell, even Mao's policy only ended up targeting a bunch of small time local landowners, most of the really wealthy tycoons were able to flee to Taiwan or Hong Kong, and of course he was never able to get his hands on the people he was really after - foreign bankers and businessmen.

Frankly, this is the thing that always drives me up a wall when people try to draw an equivalency between fascists and communists. As bad as left wing governments could be, they were by and large not sadists who simply enjoyed killing large numbers of people for its own sake, but they did understand that, under extraordinary circumstances, there are certain elements within society that will, if left unchecked, completely ruin any efforts at reform or progress. And make no mistake, the moneyed elites couldn't care less how many of us they kill so long as it helps their bottom line, why should we value their lives so greatly when they don't value ours at all? Remember that CNBC host who suggested that we should just give everyone coronavirus so that we could all go back to work and his stock portfolio can start rising again? Am I the bad guy for wanting him to die of the virus?

[Tazirai]

It is because it is used to remove any and all other characteristics of a person down to a single word. It isn’t real engagement and is really dismissive of people who are widely different from one another on how they think.

As for the following part, it was pretty clear, at least to me, that the implication was that people who support “establishment” candidates like Obama, Clinton, or Biden don’t actually want to make life better for anyone. Either that or we are too ignorant to not see through it. I apologize if I got the wrong impression from that and I invite clarification for what it means for the voters who support these candidates.



I’m truly sorry that it comes across that way. I’ll attempt to avoid engaging further. I sincerely don’t mean it to come across that way, but that doesn’t change the fact that that was what you got from it. For that, I apologize and wish you the best.

If you've learned nothing, I hope you have learned that I'm not afraid to engage with honest actors or people attempting to be honest. I'm an artist, There's not much people can say anymore that hurts my feelings.
So keep engaging. I don't mind with you, I just want us both to be mindful of how we come across.

Enjoy the night.

[Tendrin]

Those two things are deeply intertwined though, the reason that Reconstruction failed is because too many Union soldiers felt more sympathy for the defeated Confederates than for the freed slaves, and the former slaveowning class was able to exploit this sentiment to cast themselves as the victims and be let off the hook for their crimes and eventually return to power. And this sort of applies in every such situation throughout history, those with power and privilege won't simply give those up without a fight, and even after they have lost, they will use every dirty trick in the book to poison the well and undermine any safeguards we put in place, just on the off chance that this might get them their old position back. Hell, even Mao's policy only ended up targeting a bunch of small time local landowners, most of the really wealthy tycoons were able to flee to Taiwan or Hong Kong, and of course he was never able to get his hands on the people he was really after - foreign bankers and businessmen.

Frankly, this is the thing that always drives me up a wall when people try to draw an equivalency between fascists and communists. As bad as left wing governments could be, they were by and large not sadists who simply enjoyed killing large numbers of people for its own sake, but they did understand that, under extraordinary circumstances, there are certain elements within society that will, if left unchecked, completely ruin any efforts at reform or progress. And make no mistake, the moneyed elites couldn't care less how many of us they kill so long as it helps their bottom line, why should we value their lives so greatly when they don't value ours at all? Remember that CNBC host who suggested that we should just give everyone coronavirus so that we could all go back to work and his stock portfolio can start rising again? Am I the bad guy for wanting him to die of the virus?

…. this is a massive level of yikes.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Frankly, this is the thing that always drives me up a wall when people try to draw an equivalency between fascists and communists. As bad as left wing governments could be, they were by and large not sadists who simply enjoyed killing large numbers of people for its own sake, but they did understand that, under extraordinary circumstances, there are certain elements within society that will, if left unchecked, completely ruin any efforts at reform or progress.

There's a very thin line between fascists and Communists, which is why I dislike both. They've teamed up in the past, as well, like in WWII. They have differing ideologies but have the same boot on the neck of those they oppress.

And make no mistake, the moneyed elites couldn't care less how many of us they kill so long as it helps their bottom line, why should we value their lives so greatly when they don't value ours at all? Remember that CNBC host who suggested that we should just give everyone coronavirus so that we could all go back to work and his stock portfolio can start rising again? Am I the bad guy for wanting him to die of the virus?

Wishing death on people is generally frowned upon.

[Tendrin]

The supposed leftists who shrug at the mass murder while acknowledging that it didn't even really successfully target the worst of the lot are always very surprised when its their turn to be put against a wall for failing the supposed revolution when it happens.

This is not about surrender and not fighting for what's right. That's a constant struggle and one that's never, ever gonna end no matter how many supposed land lords you murder. It's about maintaining a vision of leftism rooted in human kindness. Those two things are ultimately incompatible with this kind of apologism.

[Celgress]

…. this is a massive level of yikes.

True, and yet people wonder why a percentage of Sanders supporters frightens me as an academic who knows the history of violent political movements. What has been posted in this thread is but a sample of the stuff posted every day in certain Social Media Circles, in Youtube Videoes (extreme Right and extreme Left), and frequently mentioned at (some) rallies.

[Tendrin]

True, and yet people wonder why a percentage of Sanders supporters frightens me as an academic who knows the history of violent political movements. What has been posted in this thread is but a sample of the stuff post every day in certain Social Media Circles, in Youtube Videoes (extreme Right and extreme Left), and frequently mentioned at (some) rallies.

Nazbol exists, unfortunately.

[Celgress]

Nazbol exists, unfortunately.

True, the evil of certainty indeed. I doubt even a Stalin or a Pol Pot thought they were evil at least, to begin with. Rather they believed in their hearts they were doing the right thing for the "ignorant masses". The more these "ignorant masses" resisted change the more these dictators and their followers doubled down. We all know the results.

[PwrdOn]

The supposed leftists who shrug at the mass murder while acknowledging that it didn't even really successfully target the worst of the lot are always very surprised when its their turn to be put against a wall for failing the supposed revolution when it happens.

This is not about surrender and not fighting for what's right. That's a constant struggle and one that's never, ever gonna end no matter how many supposed land lords you murder. It's about maintaining a vision of leftism rooted in human kindness. Those two things are ultimately incompatible with this kind of apologism.

Like I said, I'm not in favor of cruelty and brutality, what kind of sane person would be? But those with wealth and power certainly are in favor of exactly that, if it means a couple extra bucks in their pocket, and it's pretty easy for them to ignore an opposition that just wants to spout platitudes about love and peace and isn't willing to take any action that would threaten the status quo in any real way. This has of course been the great debate on the left ever since the French Revolution when left-wing politics really began to be a thing, but this entire time, the right has NEVER been afraid to use violence to further their goals and couldn't give two shits about how many people they kill, and if those people happen to be unarmed and nonviolent, all the easier for them.

[Tendrin]

Like I said, I'm not in favor of cruelty and brutality, what kind of sane person would be? But those with wealth and power certainly are in favor of exactly that, if it means a couple extra bucks in their pocket, and it's pretty easy for them to ignore an opposition that just wants to spout platitudes about love and peace and isn't willing to take any action that would threaten the status quo in any real way. This has of course been the great debate on the left ever since the French Revolution when left-wing politics really began to be a thing, but this entire time, the right has NEVER been afraid to use violence to further their goals and couldn't give two shits about how many people they kill, and if those people happen to be unarmed and nonviolent, all the easier for them.

One can threaten the status quo and fight for what's right, and even have a militant wing to back it up... and none of those things are the same as apologizing for, and endorsing, mass murder. Self-defense is not mass murder.

[Celgress]

One can threaten the status quo and fight for what's right, and even have a militant wing to back it up... and none of those things are the same as apologizing for, and endorsing, mass murder.

Indeed, this reminds of an infamous scene from Lost in which Ben explains to Locke the fate of Ben's people -

[PwrdOn]

One can threaten the status quo and fight for what's right, and even have a militant wing to back it up... and none of those things are the same as apologizing for, and endorsing, mass murder. Self-defense is not mass murder.

Mass murder is dramatic and all, but it accounts for a pretty small proportion of the death and suffering our species has experienced throughout its history. Much more serious are the tolls racked up just due to negligence and inaction in the face of crisis, because the people with the ability to do something about it were sufficiently sheltered from the effects that they could just ignore it. Just to focus on the here and now, there is a real possibility that millions of people could die in the coming months because this administration cared more about maintaining their stock portfolios than making sure that people could be tested and treated for the virus. Of course Americans have used extreme force to remove governments for much lesser crimes than this, they just happened not to be our own.

[Tendrin]

Mass murder is dramatic and all, but it accounts for a pretty small proportion of the death and suffering our species has experienced throughout its history. Much more serious are the tolls racked up just due to negligence and inaction in the face of crisis, because the people with the ability to do something about it were sufficiently sheltered from the effects that they could just ignore it. Just to focus on the here and now, there is a real possibility that millions of people could die in the coming months because this administration cared more about maintaining their stock portfolios than making sure that people could be tested and treated for the virus. Of course Americans have used extreme force to remove governments for much lesser crimes than this, they just happened not to be our own.

Trying to apply this context doesn't help your case. At all.