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  1. #14776
    Mighty Member SquirrelMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    You literally have no idea about human psychology or history then. Cause Rodney King ? Yeah he tried to assault police and got his ass kicked as a result, riots ensued. Michael Brown stole shit and (potentially ???) tried to assault police and was killed for it. Violent protests ensued.

    As soon as someone gets killed all hell will break loose
    We're getting a very valuable insight into what kind of person is Bernie or Bust: Someone who does not see shades of gray, someone who has no understanding of the American psyche and limited knowledge of recent American history.

  2. #14777
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Yeah but it’s one thing to be retaliate against police brutality, it’s quite another to go waving around your AR-15 proclaiming no gubmint goon is gonna stop you from going wherever you please, which is what Mets was insinuating and what I was addressing. If people start rioting over the quarantine order then they only have themselves to blame if they get infected.
    I did not insinuate anything about armed insurrection, refer to freeman on the land types, or anyone assaulting a police officer.

    The scenarios I'm envisioning are more about large groups of people ignoring the police.

    To the initial point on how do we contain our people, there is also the question of who is given the authority to make these calls. Right now, it's up to statewide and local leaders. Should there be someone in the federal government taking control? If so, what would that look like?
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  3. #14778
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacrossPlus View Post
    Not surprsing one bit. For a lot of people, Biden at least is the lesser of two evils.

    Still, lack of enthusiams isn't necessariy a problem as long as people bother to vote. An unenthusiastic vote is just as good as an enthusiastic one.

  4. #14779
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    A situation in Virginia demonstrates that even if most politicians are hypocritical scum, the few good ones can make a difference.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/o...ering-law.html

    Last year, the Republican controlled state legislature, the Democratic minority and Democratic Governor were united in the belief that to combat gerrymandering, the power to determine new legislative district lines should go to the state legislature. This was in the best interests of Republicans, since they didn't see the legislative elections going very well for the party.

    That was a marked change from last year’s bipartisanship, when the Legislature approved an identical version of the proposed amendment, the first move in a two-vote process needed to place such measures on the ballot. At the time, Democrats were in the minority in the House, and the amendment passed with overwhelming support from both parties, 85 to 13. Republicans controlled both houses of the Legislature but were widely expected to lose power, which they did, in November.

    Many Democrats had made campaign promises to support the amendment on its second vote, and they were under intense pressure to make good on the pledge. The State Senate had earlier voted, 38-2, in favor of the proposed amendment. But passage in the House was uncertain until the final hours.
    Many of the Democrats changed their minds about the policy they had thought was essential when they had complete control of the government after the November Election, and could be in a position to gerrymander. Ultimately, nine Democrats joined Republicans in supporting legislation the entire party had been campaigning on.

    Virginia’s new amendment would establish a 16-member commission, made up of eight lawmakers and eight citizens, divided evenly between the two major parties. A supermajority of both lawmaker and citizen commissioners would have to agree on a proposed map to send it to the Legislature and governor for approval. If they can’t, the job shifts to the State Supreme Court.

    The amendment, which under the State Constitution had to pass the Legislature twice in a row before going to the voters, was first approved in 2019 by overwhelming bipartisan margins. At the time, Republicans controlled the Legislature, but polls pointed strongly toward an impending Democratic takeover in last fall’s elections. As soon as that happened, most Democrats withdrew their support from the amendment. Many had previously vowed to keep supporting it even if they won — yet another reminder that power is a lot harder to relinquish once you have it in your hands.

    Some black Democratic lawmakers also opposed the amendment because, they argued, it didn’t provide enough protections for black voters, who have long been cheated out of political power by biased maps. In the past five years, federal courts in Virginia have struck down Republican-drawn state and congressional districts for intentionally discriminating against black voters.

    Advocates of the amendment nevertheless called its passage a seminal moment. “This is historic for Virginia to take a step forward on changing our broken redistricting system,” said Brian Cannon, the executive director of OneVirginia, a grass-roots group that drove the amendment campaign. “It puts citizens at the table with legislators for the first time ever. It takes it out of the smoky back room and adds sunlight and transparency.”

    The proposed amendment creates a 16-member redistricting body composed of eight legislators — four each from the two major parties — and eight citizens. Disputes over boundaries would be settled by a court-appointed special master. If approved by voters, it also would enshrine specific voting-rights protection for minorities into the State Constitution for the first time.
    It highlights the difference a few good politicians (9 of the 55 Democrats in the Assembly) can make.

    ast fall, Democrats won majorities in both houses of the Virginia Legislature; with a Democratic governor already in office, they took full control of the state government for the first time in a generation. They had unlimited power to fashion the new maps in their favor, cementing their own grip on power just as Republicans around the country have done since the last redistricting cycle in 2011. Some Republican maps are so biased that they have given the G.O.P. legislative supermajorities even when the party loses the statewide popular vote, which happened in Wisconsin in 2018. So it’s entirely understandable for Democrats who regain power to want payback — now.

    And yet nine Virginia Democrats agreed to put down their partisan swords and join Republicans to support the new amendment, which would require that the state’s district maps be drawn by a bipartisan commission made up of lawmakers and regular citizens. Voters must ratify the amendment in November before it will take effect.

    The Democrats’ vote was a display of integrity and selflessness by members of a party with unified control of government. It placed long-term interest in the health of representative democracy over the shorter-term partisan benefits that both parties have been happy to exploit when they control redistricting.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  5. #14780
    Mighty Member TheDarman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Not surprsing one bit. For a lot of people, Biden at least is the lesser of two evils.

    Still, lack of enthusiams isn't necessariy a problem as long as people bother to vote. An unenthusiastic vote is just as good as an enthusiastic one.
    I think that people are underestimating the enthusiasm that can be garnered with Obama campaigning with Biden.

    Obama is still the most popular politician in the country. He exited office with a 59% approval rating. We have had three years of Trump where he hasn’t been able to reach past 50% approval. The garnered appeal from being not-Trump and a pro-Obama candidate is probably a more explosive cocktail than many of us understand right now.
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  6. #14781
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    A situation in Virginia demonstrates that even if most politicians are hypocritical scum, the few good ones can make a difference.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/o...ering-law.html

    Last year, the Republican controlled state legislature, the Democratic minority and Democratic Governor were united in the belief that to combat gerrymandering, the power to determine new legislative district lines should go to the state legislature. This was in the best interests of Republicans, since they didn't see the legislative elections going very well for the party.



    Many of the Democrats changed their minds about the policy they had thought was essential when they had complete control of the government after the November Election, and could be in a position to gerrymander. Ultimately, nine Democrats joined Republicans in supporting legislation the entire party had been campaigning on.



    It highlights the difference a few good politicians (9 of the 55 Democrats in the Assembly) can make.
    So Republicans are ONLY against gerrymandering in States where they lose their majority. Talk about deep convictions?
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  7. #14782
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Not surprsing one bit. For a lot of people, Biden at least is the lesser of two evils.

    Still, lack of enthusiams isn't necessariy a problem as long as people bother to vote. An unenthusiastic vote is just as good as an enthusiastic one.
    True enough. However, each state right now should work on making voting by mail as easy as possible, in case the shelter-in-place orders are still in effect come November.
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  8. #14783
    Mighty Member SquirrelMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Not surprsing one bit. For a lot of people, Biden at least is the lesser of two evils.

    Still, lack of enthusiams isn't necessariy a problem as long as people bother to vote. An unenthusiastic vote is just as good as an enthusiastic one.
    Can you imagine how low the enthusiasm must be for Sanders, what with Biden being like 19 points ahead of him in the polls?

  9. #14784
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    So Republicans are ONLY against gerrymandering in States where they lose their majority. Talk about deep convictions?
    The 9 Democrats deserve to be lauded, however. I can understand the desire to 'return the favor' but the health of representative democracy is more important in my eyes. Although a few heavy handed anti-Republican gerrymanders might convince the conservatives on the Supreme Court to rethink the case that they can't intervene in such matters.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  10. #14785
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Not surprsing one bit. For a lot of people, Biden at least is the lesser of two evils.

    Still, lack of enthusiams isn't necessariy a problem as long as people bother to vote. An unenthusiastic vote is just as good as an enthusiastic one.
    This CNN article was interesting, and may help explain the disparity seen when Trump’s approval ratings went up significantly, but the polling vs Biden and Bernie only improved a tiny bit for him:
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/29/polit...eek/index.html

    Basically, Trump’s approval rating has gone up from people who traditionally don’t actually vote in elections.

    This has two points to it going forward:

    1. Anti-Trump forces will need to pound away at the truth around their less educated friends and do so pretty ruthlessly if Trump starts trying todo something unusual for himself and actually “get the vote out;” there is a chance that he could try and mobilize jus enough unconventional and uneducated voters on just the Trump-virus crisis alone to get the numbers he need in critical states... *if* those unconventional voters actually get the gumption to vote.

    2. There’s a possibility that from a practical standpoint we’re looking at the most clear example of approval ratings not meaning what people think they mean. If the people giving him a thumbs up because of the crisis still won’t vote, than he’s basically picked up the most useless part of the poll.
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  11. #14786
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    The 9 Democrats deserve to be lauded, however. I can understand the desire to 'return the favor' but the health of representative democracy is more important in my eyes. Although a few heavy handed anti-Republican gerrymanders might convince the conservatives on the Supreme Court to rethink the case that they can't intervene in such matters.
    You only have to look at which Party has been fighting gerrymandering for years, including States that have removed it, and which Party went to the Supreme Court to keep it. Doing the right thing in one State where it served their interest does not make the GOP noble.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  12. #14787
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarman View Post
    Honestly, the turning point for me was my belief of Amber Heard falling apart. I was hurt by blindly believing the situation and ignoring the evidence to the contrary of what she was saying. When Depp released clear evidence that their relationship just was toxic and they both had a history of violence with one another (with her being the aggressor, it seems, most often), I couldn’t believe that I’d let myself fall into this trap.

    That being said, I still think that these accusations are serious and warrant sincere efforts to investigate them. While it does seem inconsistent for Biden, we’ve seen these kinds of things be revealed before about people we would’ve trusted. Just like with Kavanaugh, I think that these should be thoroughly investigated completely. Hopefully, it demonstrates a truthfulness in Biden’s account, but I’m preparing for the possibility that real investigations discover the opposite.



    I understand that they aren’t full-proof. I merely meant to communicate that it did lend to her credibility that she could point out that she was able to pass such a test. Someone who has a SAG membership being on camera and acting believable about a set of allegations, meanwhile, I think means a little less than that.



    I’m fairly certain that we were able to establish that the assault would’ve taken place on a particular day on Kavanaugh’s “evidence” calendar that had him at a party that Ford says she was at. But, regardless, Kavanaugh’s accusations (plural) all came from when he was a High School and/or College Student. This is also true, but I don’t think that means that Kavanaugh should’ve been rewarded with a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court given that behavior. But, frankly, his reaction to the news is what I find plainly to be more disturbing than the news itself.

    Kavanaugh had multiple accusers during this time. I think that there was one account that seemed to be debunked quite obviously out of the four, if I recall correctly. Biden just has Tara Reade. I think there is strength in numbers in establishing a pattern of behavior. A person who is willing to use his power in the way Biden did, while he is married and has children of his own, would likely have attempted to do what he did to Reade multiple times. The alleged serial nature of Kavanaugh’s behavior lends credibility to the accusations in a way that I don’t think has happened to Biden yet. Should he get multiple accusations of the same behavior from other sources, it’ll be at that time that I would likely re-evaluate my “reasonable doubt” position, even barring other evidence from Reade coming or not.

    But, truly, I was profoundly disturbed that Kavanaugh didn’t want an investigation and would actively side-step the question. Biden has stated that he would like a thorough investigation of these charges because, he states, they are false. The fact that Kavanaugh was trying to prove his innocence by NOT asking for an investigation gives me pause. Then came his furious bluster that reeked of pure partisanship after Ford’s testimony. That, in and of itself, was unbecoming of a Justice. While I think people wrongfully accused probably do feel some sort of anger about it, I think that it is inappropriate for a Supreme Court nominee to conduct himself that way, especially when the only consequence of not getting the spot is maintaining a Federal Judgeship. These things, I felt, added more credibility to these allegations than any one of his accusers did. Should Biden react the same way, I will also end up re-evaluating my position.

    As of yet, though, little has happened and it hasn’t gotten to the level Kavanaugh’s accusations have. They haven’t been independently verified and I’m guessing that is what the New York Times and Washington Post are waiting for anyway.

    Admittedly, though, this was stuff that I stand by that transpired later in the process. My mind had been made up earlier than this and I think that was perhaps inappropriate. It wasn’t Biden’s accusation that changed my tune though. It was the Heard/Depp stuff. It became clear to me that it was ultimately harmful to real survivors to believe all women, in spite of the evidence to the contrary, because it would hurt my credibility on the issue. When I said that I believed the next accuser wholeheartedly, my stamp would mean nothing. I’ve learned to be more cautious about this. That being said, my profound disturbance with Kavanaugh’s later behavior remains the same.
    Tbf "Believe all women" isnt literally "She's telling the truth" its "treat her claim with the same professionalism you would any other serious claim".

    As for Heard and Depp.....their both toxic assholes. Their fandom only makes things worse though frankly. If two millionaires want to beat the shit out of each other because their relationship is built out of pva glue why should I defend them ?

  13. #14788
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    You only have to look at which Party has been fighting gerrymandering for years, including States that have removed it, and which Party went to the Supreme Court to keep it. Doing the right thing in one State where it served their interest does not make the GOP noble.
    You'll notice I only lauded the Democrats in that post. I'll laud Republicans for taking a stand against gerrymandering only under similar circumstances, when they take the risk of losing power to do what's right.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  14. #14789
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarman View Post
    Honestly, the turning point for me was my belief of Amber Heard falling apart. I was hurt by blindly believing the situation and ignoring the evidence to the contrary of what she was saying. When Depp released clear evidence that their relationship just was toxic and they both had a history of violence with one another (with her being the aggressor, it seems, most often), I couldn’t believe that I’d let myself fall into this trap.

    That being said, I still think that these accusations are serious and warrant sincere efforts to investigate them. While it does seem inconsistent for Biden, we’ve seen these kinds of things be revealed before about people we would’ve trusted. Just like with Kavanaugh, I think that these should be thoroughly investigated completely. Hopefully, it demonstrates a truthfulness in Biden’s account, but I’m preparing for the possibility that real investigations discover the opposite.
    It does get to be difficult to prove a negative about something that happened nearly thirty years ago.

    Biden presumably wasn't recording every conversation he had with a Senate staffer.

    I understand that they aren’t full-proof. I merely meant to communicate that it did lend to her credibility that she could point out that she was able to pass such a test. Someone who has a SAG membership being on camera and acting believable about a set of allegations, meanwhile, I think means a little less than that.
    Fair enough. I don't know how much these distinctions have trickled down to ordinary news consumers.

    I’m fairly certain that we were able to establish that the assault would’ve taken place on a particular day on Kavanaugh’s “evidence” calendar that had him at a party that Ford says she was at. But, regardless, Kavanaugh’s accusations (plural) all came from when he was a High School and/or College Student. This is also true, but I don’t think that means that Kavanaugh should’ve been rewarded with a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court given that behavior. But, frankly, his reaction to the news is what I find plainly to be more disturbing than the news itself.

    Kavanaugh had multiple accusers during this time. I think that there was one account that seemed to be debunked quite obviously out of the four, if I recall correctly. Biden just has Tara Reade. I think there is strength in numbers in establishing a pattern of behavior. A person who is willing to use his power in the way Biden did, while he is married and has children of his own, would likely have attempted to do what he did to Reade multiple times. The alleged serial nature of Kavanaugh’s behavior lends credibility to the accusations in a way that I don’t think has happened to Biden yet. Should he get multiple accusations of the same behavior from other sources, it’ll be at that time that I would likely re-evaluate my “reasonable doubt” position, even barring other evidence from Reade coming or not.

    But, truly, I was profoundly disturbed that Kavanaugh didn’t want an investigation and would actively side-step the question. Biden has stated that he would like a thorough investigation of these charges because, he states, they are false. The fact that Kavanaugh was trying to prove his innocence by NOT asking for an investigation gives me pause. Then came his furious bluster that reeked of pure partisanship after Ford’s testimony. That, in and of itself, was unbecoming of a Justice. While I think people wrongfully accused probably do feel some sort of anger about it, I think that it is inappropriate for a Supreme Court nominee to conduct himself that way, especially when the only consequence of not getting the spot is maintaining a Federal Judgeship. These things, I felt, added more credibility to these allegations than any one of his accusers did. Should Biden react the same way, I will also end up re-evaluating my position.

    As of yet, though, little has happened and it hasn’t gotten to the level Kavanaugh’s accusations have. They haven’t been independently verified and I’m guessing that is what the New York Times and Washington Post are waiting for anyway.

    Admittedly, though, this was stuff that I stand by that transpired later in the process. My mind had been made up earlier than this and I think that was perhaps inappropriate. It wasn’t Biden’s accusation that changed my tune though. It was the Heard/Depp stuff. It became clear to me that it was ultimately harmful to real survivors to believe all women, in spite of the evidence to the contrary, because it would hurt my credibility on the issue. When I said that I believed the next accuser wholeheartedly, my stamp would mean nothing. I’ve learned to be more cautious about this. That being said, my profound disturbance with Kavanaugh’s later behavior remains the same.
    If there had been significant evidence of wrongdoing, Kavanaugh would have been unfit for the court. We wouldn't even need the discussion about whether someone should be defined by their behavior as a minor 35 years ago, because he denied it, which would disqualify him if the allegations are true (either he lacks the self-awareness to understand what he did or he's lying.)

    But the evidence was still limited. Ford didn't tell anyone about it for decades. The strongest other accuser wasn't actually sure he did anything. One claim of bad behavior by a witness was refuted by the woman. Some people did admit to lying about him. And then there were the allegations that he and others habitually gang-raped others in high school. Any discussions about his behavior in response to the allegations should take into context the mistakes made by the other side (Senators referring to Swetnick's allegations as a reason to penalize Kavanaugh, someone leaking Ford's allegations at the eleventh hour against her wishes to pressure her into going forward, etc.)

    I'm sorry for going into so much depth on a controversy from years ago. I think it's one of the most interesting political arguments in the last twenty years, just do all the potential questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    So Republicans are ONLY against gerrymandering in States where they lose their majority. Talk about deep convictions?
    And an overwhelming majority of Democrats (45 out of 54, or 83 1/3%) in a legislative body were in favor of gerrymandering the moment they could benefit.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  15. #14790
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Would you agree that the non-partisan commission is the way all State's should go.
    On another note, too bad the Roberts SCOTUS doesn't believe in Voting Rights.
    Last edited by Kirby101; 03-29-2020 at 01:15 PM.
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