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  1. #31
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    The main issue with the Netflix shows (among others) is that they clearly didn't want to make superhero shows and removed everything "super" about them. It was a miracle DD even got a costume, which he barely wore anyways. There were no supervillains (just mundane bad guys), no super tech or sci-fi elements, and the powers that were there were practically secondary. They just never felt like superhero shows to me, and the elements that made it in were token. It's why I was glad Moon Knight never got adapted by Netflix, because as dark as he is, Moony is still very much a superhero with a stylized costume, an assortment of fancy gadgets and high-tech moon vehicles, and he fights costumed supervillains. Can't see that making it to Netflix.

    I can't believe in this day and age we still have creators who are embarrassed to be making superhero stuff.

  2. #32
    Incredible Member Force de Phenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    The main issue with the Netflix shows (among others) is that they clearly didn't want to make superhero shows and removed everything "super" about them. It was a miracle DD even got a costume, which he barely wore anyways. There were no supervillains (just mundane bad guys), no super tech or sci-fi elements, and the powers that were there were practically secondary. They just never felt like superhero shows to me, and the elements that made it in were token. It's why I was glad Moon Knight never got adapted by Netflix, because as dark as he is, Moony is still very much a superhero with a stylized costume, an assortment of fancy gadgets and high-tech moon vehicles, and he fights costumed supervillains. Can't see that making it to Netflix.

    I can't believe in this day and age we still have creators who are embarrassed to be making superhero stuff.
    I think they had a crappy budget and made the most of it. Their villains are very different as well. I don't know if people were hoping to see serpent people in Luke Cage. If they tried anything too extreme, people would've bashed it like Supergirl. Most people liked the Netflix shows except for Iron Fist. The Defenders had weak writing.

    Iron Fist was bad because of the showrunner that doesn't know how to balance things.

  3. #33
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Eh, I'd say it started strong enough but it lost a lot of steam later on. Even the most consistently good one, Daredevil, fell short in the last season in terms of viewers. Jessica Jones closed out the Defenders 'verse with practically no fanfare. Anyways, you can be R-rated and still be about unabashed superheroes. Just look at DC's Titans and Doom Patrol.

  4. #34
    Mighty Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Definitely agree that the Netflix shows were hardly 'super'. It really only worked for Daredevil and Jessica Jones at first. But this really backfired with both Iron Fist and Defenders especially. Even then all these characters are still superheroes.

    It might feel weird to some, but if they ever reboot Daredevil for Marvel Studios, I hope they borrow from Mark Waid's run.

    Anyway, more on the topic at hand: I hope Feige doesn't do too much within the comics. They could use a new direction that doesn't feel too MCU inspired. And I don't want him to stretch himself thin.

  5. #35
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    That's... not how it works.

    Think about it.

    Feige had been undercutting Loeb for quite awhile. He has finally gotten him out of the company. He isn't going touch his projects with a ten foot pole. He just got done killing Loeb's Ghost Rider project. https://ew.com/tv/2019/09/25/ghost-r...u-series-dead/

    What makes you think he is going to let a character that Loeb had such a big hand in shine?
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    I don't even think it sucks. It's just reality.

    More people see movies than read comics and more merchandise is bought and consumed by people than either comics or films. You can go anywhere and see people of all walks of life in a Marvel T-shirt of some kind.

    Few of those people read comics on a regular basis, if they've ever read them at all and they may or may not see every Marvel movie, much less own them all on DVD.
    Kids don't read hero comics much anymore. They know Spider-Man from the shows, games, toys and movies. They never read a spidey comic in their life! Their iron man is the jokey movie iron man and their gotg is the movie version. They know nothing of the comic ones.

    Kids are reading comics but it's guts, big nate, dogman, bone and non hero books and manga like pokemon and Zelda. Teens are reading lumberjanes and babysitters club comics and manga! My Nephew is getting into Naruto bigtime and reads pokemon, big nate and the Mario manga. He loves marvel and dc heroes---the movies and shows! He won't read the comics. Have a huge bookcase of trades of marvel and dc and he won't touch them to save his life! The biggest hero comic right now are one piece and our hero academia!

    The chart in this topic more or less shows hero comics are third behind young readers books and manga and bookstores have beat comic shops in sales this year so yes marvel needs to try something else to get new and young readers! The manga type trades they are releasing this year for moon girl and x-men is a good idea for a start.

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...perhero-Comics!

  7. #37
    Incredible Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    I think that's an exaggeration. It's more that non-superhero comics are more popular than before, which is good, because for a very long time the American comic book industry was fueled entirely by superheroes and little else. It was in stark contrast to European comics and Asian comics, which were as diverse as written literature. I think it's great that new stories of different genres can make it big in the comic book medium as opposed to being limited to superheroes.

  8. #38
    Incredible Member Force de Phenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    Kids don't read hero comics much anymore. They know Spider-Man from the shows, games, toys and movies. They never read a spidey comic in their life! Their iron man is the jokey movie iron man and their gotg is the movie version. They know nothing of the comic ones.

    Kids are reading comics but it's guts, big nate, dogman, bone and non hero books and manga like pokemon and Zelda. Teens are reading lumberjanes and babysitters club comics and manga! My Nephew is getting into Naruto bigtime and reads pokemon, big nate and the Mario manga. He loves marvel and dc heroes---the movies and shows! He won't read the comics. Have a huge bookcase of trades of marvel and dc and he won't touch them to save his life! The biggest hero comic right now are one piece and our hero academia!

    The chart in this topic more or less shows hero comics are third behind young readers books and manga and bookstores have beat comic shops in sales this year so yes marvel needs to try something else to get new and young readers! The manga type trades they are releasing this year for moon girl and x-men is a good idea for a start.

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...perhero-Comics!
    Well if you think about it, Pokemon was the downfall of superhero shows in the 90's. Manga is so outlandish and dynamic. We can also "blame" video games and mobile pjones for children moving away from comics. And the serious tone they're striving for now is to appease the millenials in their late 30's and 40's (which I think we all somewhat fit into) from wanting more substance.

    Perlmutter and Co. brought back all the nostalgic characters now because the readership didn't want or have anything to do with radical changes.

    Feige knows what works for the screen, and maybe comics will become publicity pamphlets for upcoming projects like everyone is saying about everything.

  9. #39
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force de Phenix View Post
    I think they had a crappy budget and made the most of it. Their villains are very different as well. I don't know if people were hoping to see serpent people in Luke Cage. If they tried anything too extreme, people would've bashed it like Supergirl. Most people liked the Netflix shows except for Iron Fist. The Defenders had weak writing.
    I think it was a stylistic choice. Daredevil season one played so coy with the superhuman trope that when my brother watched it, he didn't even get that Matt had superpowers. He thought the show was just saying that he tried harder than other blind people. (To be fair, that is basically Stick's thing)

  10. #40
    Incredible Member Force de Phenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I think it was a stylistic choice. Daredevil season one played so coy with the superhuman trope that when my brother watched it, he didn't even get that Matt had superpowers. He thought the show was just saying that he tried harder than other blind people. (To be fair, that is basically Stick's thing)
    They nerfed everyone because it's too expensive. However, they knew what their budget was and did a good job with what they had. So they were "forced" to change their stylistic choice to accommodate their budget which is a challenge. Jessica only "flew" 3 times in the 3 seasons, and two out of the 3 they didn't show her in the air.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force de Phenix View Post
    They nerfed everyone because it's too expensive. However, they knew what their budget was and did a good job with what they had. So they were "forced" to change their stylistic choice to accommodate their budget which is a challenge. Jessica only "flew" 3 times in the 3 seasons, and two out of the 3 they didn't show her in the air.
    It wasn't a matter of power levels – and, Daredevil's powers aren't really anything budget busting if you avoid showing radar sense. The lengths they went to keep Matt out of the Daredevil costume, and Frank out of a Punisher costume, weren't based in budgetary concerns. Neither was their avoidance of the name Daredevil. Or their reluctance to clearly acknowledge Matt's being superpowered.

    It was clear that they felt like they had to avoid superhero genre trappings in order to be a "serious", gritty, street-level show.

  12. #42
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    My problem with the Netflix shows was not so much the downplaying of super powers as the endless season-long stories. Loeb and co. knew that the fashion today, especially on Netflix, was to have each season be one long movie for binge-watching purposes. But it's just too much, especially at 13 episodes, but even with 10 episodes I'd want more variety.

    And this was so unnecessary with these characters because they mostly have jobs that were created to provide them with "cases of the week." In the original Alias comic, we got smaller arcs about Jessica's cases, and it ended with the big Purple Man story. In the show, they made that story the entire season and dropped all the smaller cases. I know why they did it, but I think they were wrong.

  13. #43
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    I generally prefer serialized over episodic narrative.

    I think a good model could have been Hannibal season one, which starts out as a "monster of the week" type show, but as the season goes on, the weekly cases get solved quicker and more attention is devoted to the ongoing plots, until it just becomes about those and loses the episodic premise entirely.

  14. #44
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    It was my understanding that the more basic and grounded setting with less emphasis on traditional Superheroics was what was partially appealing about the Netflix shows, in that they put more emphasis on the real life human aspect then the fantastical powers and costumes.

    It wasn't the approach I would have taken, but I felt it was valid.

  15. #45
    Incredible Member Force de Phenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    It wasn't a matter of power levels – and, Daredevil's powers aren't really anything budget busting if you avoid showing radar sense. The lengths they went to keep Matt out of the Daredevil costume, and Frank out of a Punisher costume, weren't based in budgetary concerns. Neither was their avoidance of the name Daredevil. Or their reluctance to clearly acknowledge Matt's being superpowered.

    It was clear that they felt like they had to avoid superhero genre trappings in order to be a "serious", gritty, street-level show.
    Everything was organic. The way Daredevil got his costume and when he wore it was appropriate. He was blind and able to fight better than thee Iron Fist.

    That was his powers. The thing that bothered me the most was not seeing Jessica flying, ignoring she had that power.

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