Symbiotes vs Goblins

[Agent Z]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss two of the most enduring elements in the Spider-Man mythos: the Alien Symbiotes and the Goblins of various colors. Which of these characters/elements do you feel makes for a more interesting threat for the wall-crawler?

For me it's the Goblins. While the Symbiotes make for interesting visuals and I like Eddie Brock, I can't deny the very real impact the Legacy of the Goblin has had on Spider-Man as seen with the Death of Gwen Stacy, the Plot of The Clone Saga and the corruption of Peter's friend Harry.

[Pav]

I can't wait to see this conversation develop; I think you've asked a really important question, cheetah.

I will say that both are equally interesting parts of the mythos, and an in-depth analysis of what each provides to Spidey stories will, I think, prove quite interesting.

Just to get the ball rolling: at a very basic level, both the goblins and the symbiotes highlight what happens to people who don't learn that great responsibility must come with great power.

-Pav, who loves literary analysis SO MUCH...

[sifighter]

I'm going with Symbiotes, both groups have some really great characters and stories but the Goblin either has to build up an army or gather tools and weapons, while Symbiotes just have to attach to people, multiply, and then start attacking people. Besides I find the Symbiotes like Venom or Carnage to be more blood-thirsty then the Goblins.

[SuperiorIronman]

Tough question.

Outside of venom,Carnage and Toxin. I find I'm able to remember the symbiotes more. That doesn't mean goblins aren't memorable but symbiotes have that sense of danger. When a new symbiote character or idenity is leaked a lot of people just go nuts over the possibilities one of them brings as they are easily the most adaptable part of spidermans mythos and are even able to adapt to spiderman himself. So as I see it, the alien or sometimes weapon/cure goo can make just as much of an impact if not more than a goblin would.

In terms of impact on the story to me anyways. Goblins play a large role not only with the death of Gwen but being an attack on Peter. The stories have usually been rather personal for him when involving the Goblins. But the symbiotes like venom took it a step further. If a goblin discovers one idenity Peter is usually safe in one or the other but when a symbiote is involved it not only takes what Peter knew but his powers and anyone else or anything it got a hold of. Venom made it personal for Peter having scared MJ and was a evil spiderman. All the power and none of the responsibility long before Kaine used that sort of motto. Symbiotes meant that Peter no matter what he did would push Peter to his very limit. Goblins excluding goblin nation would in a way only threaten Peter.

Overall I like them both. Symbiotes are dangerous on both sides and I would love to see one become a master manipulated, but I like goblin s because it makes a story more personal for spiderman. I just prefer symbiotes.

[Vortex85]

Tough question.
Symbiotes meant that Peter no matter what he did would push Peter to his very limit. Goblins excluding goblin nation would in a way only threaten Peter.

Um, Norman Osborn is notorious for threating Peter's family and freinds to get at him.

- Death of Gwen Stacy
- Poisoning MJ / kidnapping of his Peter's newborn daughter
- Killing Ben Reilly
- Kidnapping and taking MJ to the bridge to replay Gwen's death
- Putting Flash Thompson in a coma with brain damage
- Kidnapping Aunt may and burying her alive
- Threating everyone Peter loves and holds dear, even his own grandson Normie, to push Peter into killing him

[Aruran.]

Venom is overvalued in Spider-Man mythos. The media adaptions added the aggression factor as a reason why Peter removed the suit, but it's hard for them to make a dangerous impact as Spider-Man. They serve a purpose to endanger everyone Peter knows, but they don't commit crimes or anything that put the lives outside Peter's loved ones in danger. So if Peter goes away, so does Venom. Great villains aren't known for that.

Carnage was worse off. It's a serial killer who bonded to an alien to become a killing machine, so it's not even crime fighting, it's just saving lives. Which is still weak because theres never enough of a backstory so you can understand Cletus.

[Venomous Mask]

Carnage was worse off. It's a serial killer who bonded to an alien to become a killing machine, so it's not even crime fighting, it's just saving lives. Which is still weak because theres never enough of a backstory so you can understand Cletus.

How's stopping a super-powered serial killer not crime-fighting? Carnage was very different from previous Spiderman villains in a number of ways, but at his core, he was just another criminal. As for Venom, the face that his sole purpose was just to get Spiderman made him quite unique. Other villains were out for wealth and power, but Venom was like this dark shadow that haunted the most intimate areas of Peter's life.

[Aruran.]

How's stopping a super-powered serial killer not crime-fighting? Carnage was very different from previous Spiderman villains in a number of ways, but at his core, he was just another criminal. As for Venom, the face that his sole purpose was just to get Spiderman made him quite unique. Other villains were out for wealth and power, but Venom was like this dark shadow that haunted the most intimate areas of Peter's life.

Well it doesn't fit Spider-Man's street level crime-fighting. And the thing with Carnage is that by portraying him as the super-powered serial killer, they end up dehumanizing him and which makes it hard for readers to understand why he should be allowed to live. And the fact it becomes difficult for him to team-up with other villains causes more problems when trying to expand his story.

The thing with Venom is that it's still a weak idea. It works that he haunts Peter at the most intimate areas of his life, but theres not much else. He doesn't commit crimes, and more often then not he's portrayed as an anti-hero. The symbiote is more of a villain, but then it starts looking more like a monster that Peter should get rid of.

[Beacon]

The Osborns make things personal and Kingsley is a great evil mastermind type (who also accidentally made it personal by framing Flash and Ned). Most of the other goblins are pretty worthless.

Venom is an example of Spider-Man gone wrong but that really doesn’t make him special; half of Spider-Man’s more memorable enemies are Spidey and/or Peter gone wrong. Heck, you could make the argument that the Norman, Harry, (debunked) Ned, and Phil Goblins represent that archetype. Eddie is pretty bland and Mac was a HUGE missed opportunity, but I like Flash as a heroic Venom. I liked the other heroic Venom’s too (Toxin and Hybrid) but their stories never went anywhere. I would be happy never to see Carnage again.

Gotta give it to the Goblins…even though everyone knows Octopi are where it’s at.

[Venomous Mask]

Well it doesn't fit Spider-Man's street level crime-fighting. And the thing with Carnage is that by portraying him as the super-powered serial killer, they end up dehumanizing him and which makes it hard for readers to understand why he should be allowed to live. And the fact it becomes difficult for him to team-up with other villains causes more problems when trying to expand his story.

Carnage has partially cosmic origins, but his human side is quite street-level; a mentally disturbed kid that is abused in foster care to the extent that he becomes completely nihilistic and lashes out with extreme violence. We hear about these kinds of stories in the news all the time. A major problem with his story development is that it has been extremely inconsistent as the writers have not seemed to have cared about crafting a unified character history. The inconsistencies in Cletus Kasady's past can be somewhat explained away by his insanity, similar to the what we see in the Joker, but the symbiote has been all over the place. For a time, it was stated that the original symbiote had been destroyed in ASM #363 and what came after was a lifeless manifestation of the symbiote's interaction with Kasady's blood. This is somewhat similar to how the Anti-Venom symbiote worked and was why for a while Carnage was immune to sonic blasts. Then, with no explanation, the symbiote suddenly came to life in the Web of Carnage arc and was free to leave Kasady and find other hosts. In Carnage: Mind Bomb, the sound weakness also came back. After Venom reabsorbed the symbiote, Kasady somehow found it again in an alternate universe with no explanation as the how it got there (there are some hints that it did not fully merge with Venom and split off again). During the Venom vs. Carnage story, the symbiote is completely independent of Cletus, the two have conversations (most on how they wanted to kill Black Cat), and when the symbiote is fully covering him, it, not Kasady, is completely in control. There was later even more confusion when Kasady mysteriously got his legs back again (why didn't the Venom symbiote grow them back for Flash Thompson), as well as confusion as to if the symbiote is fully part of Kasady's blood stream or a completely independent life form. This isn't due to flaws in the character, it's due to the fact that Carnage was a cash cow that writers often wanted to use just to make money. Put him in the hands of a good writer and you get good stories (like Carnage USA).

I do agree with you that under normal circumstances, letting him live doesn't make that much sense, but then again, that can be said of many bad guys. Look at Batman's rogues gallery; how many people would have been saved if Batman had just put a bullet through the Joker's head the first time he met him? But then again, that would have eliminated many classic future stories and compromised the hero's character. I do think that the Carnage symbiote should move on from Kasady to another host, maybe a religious fanatic, to give him more purpose than just killing for fun.

The thing with Venom is that it's still a weak idea. It works that he haunts Peter at the most intimate areas of his life, but theres not much else. He doesn't commit crimes, and more often then not he's portrayed as an anti-hero. The symbiote is more of a villain, but then it starts looking more like a monster that Peter should get rid of.

The thing about Venom is that the symbiote was originally supposed to leave Eddie Brock in ASM #400. This meant that the story of Venom being a one-note character obsessed with killed Spiderman was supposed to be temporary. However, his popularity got so big that there was no way that Marvel was gonna get rid of his so they came up with the anti-hero idea (Carnage was created so that there would still be a symbiote villain). While we did get a few good Venom anti-hero stories in the mid-90s, the idea was quite controversial at the time and was more for money than anything else. Come around to the reboot in 1999, and yes, Venom was a flat, boring character, but then again, that whole era was flat and boring. The Hunger was an excellent story that breathed life into the character while the Gargan Venom turned him into just the kind of villain you mentioned earlier; a street level villain. The Flash Thompson Venom has been awesome and possibly the most creative iteration of the character. Again, like Carnage, it wasn't that the character was bad, it's that people just wanted to make as much money off him as possible and so whored him out in as many mediocre stories as possible.

[Aruran.]

Again, like Carnage, it wasn't that the character was bad, it's that people just wanted to make as much money off him as possible and so whored him out in as many mediocre stories as possible.

Which was my point, that they're overvalued in the Spider-Man mythos.

[Venomous Mask]

Which was my point, that they're overvalued in the Spider-Man mythos.

Carnage, yes. Venom, no. Venom filled an important role that had not been in Spiderman before. The first four Venom stories, especially the first two with McFarlane, really brought out the nightmarish scenario that Venom brought to Spiderman's world. If Marvel had not gone down the route of making an easy buck, we could have gotten some truly macabre, psychological stuff.

[Aruran.]

Carnage, yes. Venom, no. Venom filled an important role that had not been in Spiderman before. The first four Venom stories, especially the first two with McFarlane, really brought out the nightmarish scenario that Venom brought to Spiderman's world. If Marvel had not gone down the route of making an easy buck, we could have gotten some truly macabre, psychological stuff.

But he hasn't stay in that role, therefore overvalued.

[Venomous Mask]

But he hasn't stay in that role, therefore overvalued.

His new role is just as creative, possibly even more so. The symbiotes are incredibly flexible creatures and the writers are really starting to push their limits in the new stories.

[normanosborn]

I think there are more useless symbiotes than goblins. The only pretty bad Gobby spinoffs that come to my mind are Demogoblin and the Gwen-Norman kids.