Thread Drift: Was what happened to Peter Parker in Amazing Spider-Man 700 really ever resolved?

[Thinker4730]

The original might be dead (haven't personally actually read all of SSM yet, so I'm not sure), which naturally leads to the question: what does that matter, if the current Peter is 100% identical?

The matter is that Slott and Marvel are trying to pull a fast one over Spider-Man fans.

Fans want the true Peter Parker to be Spider-Man...that's what the whole issue was about in regards to the Clone Saga...and now that very thing has happened all over again only this time it's been done via cloning Peter Parker's mind.

[AcesX1X]

Misinterpreted? Really? Do explain how it is the writer who misinterpreted their own work which they themself created and proved they can plot out a story in advance for 100 issues and proceed to call back to where clues were laid out leading to said story and not the reader who is merely the fan.

if peter parker "survived" due to his brain patterns being placed into a cloned brain, and dan slott is trying to pass it off as the original in any shape or form other than a copy, then yes that is a misinterpretation.

we have years and years of established marvel canon in the forms of the vision, wonder man, jocosta, and the wasp to tell us what happens when you copy someone's brain patterns and place them in another form.

vision is not wonder man.

jocasta is not the wasp.

this new parker is not the original spider-man.

you can do with that information what you will, but those are the ugly facts.

[Thinker4730]

if peter parker "survived" due to his brain patterns being placed into a cloned brain, and dan slott is trying to pass it off as the original in any shape or form other than a copy, then yes that is a misinterpretation.

we have years and years of established marvel canon in the forms of the vision, wonder man, jocosta, and the wasp to tell us what happens when you copy someone's brain patterns and place them in another form.

vision is not wonder man.

jocasta is not the wasp.

this new parker is not the original spider-man.

you can do with that information what you will, but those are the ugly facts.

No. Peter's mind is what was cloned not his brain.

Doc Ock and Peter switched minds.

Before Peter died in Doc Ock's body he uploaded his memories back into his body and then his original mind died in Doc Ock's body.

Going by the story those memories developed into a new consciousness and became Ghost Peter and such a thing was proven to be Peter (a mind clone of Peter that is) because he remembered what he did in Doc Ock's body.

Slott is claiming that Peter succeeded in uploading his actual mind back into his body, but the story reveals otherwise by showing that Peter did in fact die in Doc Ock's body.

If Peter actually had succeeded in uploading his actual mind back into his body then Doc Ock's body would've been dead the very moment that happened because it would then be a mindless body and someone without a mind can't talk and Peter in Doc Ock's body clearly did after the upload attempt was made, which means he didn't succeed in uploading his mind back into his body it was only his memories, which later developed into a new consciousness (Ghost Peter) and that makes it a cloned mind of the original Peter.

[Kurolegacy]

if peter parker "survived" due to his brain patterns being placed into a cloned brain, and dan slott is trying to pass it off as the original in any shape or form other than a copy, then yes that is a misinterpretation.

we have years and years of established marvel canon in the forms of the vision, wonder man, jocosta, and the wasp to tell us what happens when you copy someone's brain patterns and place them in another form.

vision is not wonder man.

jocasta is not the wasp.

this new parker is not the original spider-man.

you can do with that information what you will, but those are the ugly facts.

You do realize that, based on your own statement of comparing this to Vision and Jocasta, that would mean that when Doc Ock acting like Peter, it was a cloned mind of Peter's and vice versa because as 699 explained with the method, the golden octobot merely rewrote the body's brain patterns to the other's not swapped their minds.

[normanosborn]

The matter is that Slott and Marvel are trying to pull a fast one over Spider-Man fans.

Fans want the true Peter Parker to be Spider-Man...that's what the whole issue was about in regards to the Clone Saga...and now that very thing has happened all over again only this time it's been done via cloning Peter Parker's mind.

I haven't seen, well, anyone campaign against the relaunch of ASM because it's not the original copy of Peter's mind.

Please speak for yourself when you talk for "the fans", I would have been cool with Ben Reilly replacing Peter and I consider myself a fan.

I think you are exaggerating the "issue" here.

Out of curiosity, what does it matter, story-wise, if Peter's mind is not the original, anymore?

[Kurolegacy]

Going by the story those memories developed into a new consciousness and became Ghost Peter and such a thing was proven to be Peter (a mind clone of Peter that is) because he remembered what he did in Doc Ock's body.

The only thing of the story that ever made Ghost Peter out to be the memories developing a consciousness was Doc Ock which in itself was baseless conjecture on his part. Given his sheer amount of arrogance, of course he'd believe something like that. Simply because he says something doesn't make it fact. At no point was evidence shown that supported this

Slott is claiming that Peter succeeded in uploading his actual mind back into his body, but the story reveals otherwise by showing that Peter did in fact die in Doc Ock's body.

If Peter actually had succeeded in uploading his actual mind back into his body then Doc Ock's body would've been dead the very moment that happened because it would then be a mindless body and someone without a mind can't talk and Peter in Doc Ock's body clearly did after the upload attempt was made, which means he didn't succeed in uploading his mind back into his body it was only his memories, which later developed into a new consciousness (Ghost Peter) and that makes it a cloned mind of the original Peter.

Considering that we never even saw the process of the mind switch in the first place, you can't make that statement as fact. At no point does the story show it to be an instantaneous process and as the story itself did show, it wasn't right away after the psychic link was established that Ghost Peter appeared to be able to influence the body's actions first being hinted at in Avenging Spider-Man 15 and then shown full out in Superior Spider-Man 1.

[Thinker4730]

Considering that we never even saw the process of the mind switch in the first place, you can't make that statement as fact.

The story did reveal the process or we wouldn't have had a story to begin with. Do you even realize that if it wasn't an actual mindswap then Ghost Peter should've had no knowledge of what he supposedly did in Doc Ock's body because he would've never been in it to begin with?

If Peter was always Peter with just Doc Ock's brainwaves overridding his own then how did Ghost Peter end up with the knowledge of what Peter's brainwaves overridding Doc Ock's was doing in Doc Ock's body?

If it wasn't a mindswap then there would be no need to have Ghost Peter remember what he did in Doc Ock's body because Peter was never in Doc Ock's body to begin with.

The only reason whatsoever for Ghost Peter to have that knowledge is the fact that it was an actual mindswap and not just Doc Ock's brainwaves overridding Peter's.

At no point does the story show it to be an instantaneous process and as the story itself did show, it wasn't right away after the psychic link was established that Ghost Peter appeared to be able to influence the body's actions first being hinted at in Avenging Spider-Man 15 and then shown full out in Superior Spider-Man 1.

I know it wasn't right away after the psychic link was established that Ghost Peter appeared have any influence over Doc Ock which just proves my case that he is a cloned mind of the original Peter. The memories needed time to develop into the new consciousness of Peter (Ghost Peter) before he had any influence.

See the story itself proves my case.

[Thinker4730]

You do realize that, based on your own statement of comparing this to Vision and Jocasta, that would mean that when Doc Ock acting like Peter, it was a cloned mind of Peter's and vice versa because as 699 explained with the method, the golden octobot merely rewrote the body's brain patterns to the other's not swapped their minds.

Brain patterns are NOT the consciousness.

When I'm talking about a cloned mind I'm referring to the consciousness being copied not brain patterns rewriting the mind of another person.

Brain patterns and the consciousness are two different things.

Brain patterns are not the source of one's memories the consciousness is.

The consciousness also makes self awareness possible memories alone are not enough. Peter was likely able to upload a part of his consciousness back into his body which helped Ghost Peter to come into being, but he is still a cloned mind or the original Peter.

If Slott didn't want such a thing to be a fact in his story then he should've had Doc Ock's body being dead right after Peter uploaded his memories/part of his consciousness into his body, but he didn't.

Doc Ock could've simply stated "He's dead" right afterwards, but instead he had a dying Peter in Doc Ock's body interact with Doc Ock and then die instead. That is the key point that proves that Ghost Peter is a cloned mind of the original Peter. That is the key arugment that proves my entire case and it's something that happened in the story and it can't be refuted.

It is also something that Slott had to do in order to do his story of Superior spider-Man. He had to have Peter appear to die in Doc Ock's body. For his story to be there was no other way for him to win other than for Peter to appear to die.

But, due to that fact there was only one outcome to the story in order for Peter to return...he had to be a cloned mind of the original, but this is something that can't be directly revealed to the fans and so it will never be directly revealed to be the case by Slott, but indirectly it is still a fact...the real Peter Parker is dead.

For anyone who has ever seen the movie War Games I give you a quote from the computer Whooper after he learned that there was no winner in a nuclear war...

Whooper: Strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

And so in Slott's case if he didn't want to create a cloned mind of the original Peter his winning move should've been to not to have done the story of Superior Spider-Man in the first place.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Thinker I get your reasoning but there's one little hole in your idea. They used the same device so it should have the same effect. I won't argue with it being bad writing because it is but right now I see both arguments have some valid claims and some holes.

[Thinker4730]

Thinker I get your reasoning but there's one little hole in your idea. They used the same device so it should have the same effect. I won't argue with it being bad writing because it is but right now I see both arguments have some valid claims and some holes.

Well, in the end that bad writing just reveals that the mind in Peter's body is a cloned version of the original.

Slott's mistake was to show Peter actually dying in Doc Ock's body by interacting with Doc Ock after supposedly succeeding in uploading his mind back into his body (as Slott has claimed to have happened) which wouldn't have been possible if such a thing was actually the case. The mind can't exist in two bodies at the same time unless one of those minds is actually a clone of the original.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Well, in the end that bad writing just reveals that the mind in Peter's body is a cloned version of the original.

Slott's mistake was to show Peter actually dying in Doc Ock's body by interacting with Doc Ock after supposedly succeeding in uploading his mind back into his body (as Slott has claimed to have happened) which wouldn't have been possible if such a thing was actually the case. The mind can't exist in two bodies at the same time unless one of those minds is actually a clone of the original.

But you said from what I understand that the machine created the clone. If that's the case wouldn't that also mean that the Peter in Ock's body was a clone as well?

[Thinker4730]

But you said from what I understand that the machine created the clone. If that's the case wouldn't that also mean that the Peter in Ock's body was a clone as well?

I never said that that the machine created Peter's cloned mind because it didn't.

The machine swapped the minds of Peter and Doc Ock.

The clone of Peter's mind was created as a result of Peter's attempt do another mindswap to get his body back, but apparently resulted in uploading all of his memories including the memories he acquired while in Doc Ock's body into his body instead which eventually developed into Ghost Peter. Slott apparently claims that Peter succeeded in uploading his actual mind into his body and that is who Ghost Peter was. However, if such a thing was in fact true then there shouldn't have been any interaction between Peter and Doc Ock after that supposed success because Peter would then no longer be in Doc Ock's body and as a result of that Doc Ock's body should've been dead because it would've then been mindless.

The body can't live without the mind.

Since it was shown that Peter did die in Doc Ock's body the only logical conclusion for the existence of Ghost Peter is for him to be a cloned mind of Peter and not the original because Peter's original mind died in Doc Ock's body.

You can't deny what happened in the story itself and the story reveals that Peter died in Doc Ock's body with no success of his actual mind being uploaded back into his body (as Slott is claiming to have happened) because he interacted with Doc Ock and died and that wouldn't have been possible if Peter had actually succeeded in doing what Slott claims.

[joshuastar]

this thread reminds me of that time period when DV1Band only ever posted things like "Peter is dead, deal with it, good riddance. long live SpOck!" and everyone would argue with him and he'd just repeat the same things over and over again.

the only difference being, that was fun to read.
YOU CAN'T IGNORE THE FACTS OF THIS THREAD... EVEN THOUGH YOUD LIKE TO.

anyway.

[Kurolegacy]

this thread reminds me of that time period when DV1Band only ever posted things like "Peter is dead, deal with it, good riddance. long live SpOck!" and everyone would argue with him and he'd just repeat the same things over and over again.

the only difference being, that was fun to read.
YOU CAN'T IGNORE THE FACTS OF THIS THREAD... EVEN THOUGH YOUD LIKE TO.

anyway.

I completely agree. At least with DV1Band we could joke at his repetition to the point of wondering if he was just trolling and in the end we ended up being right. Thinker's just no fun at all considering it's not even really a debate when the writer's already revealed the answer and he just acts as if he knows more about the story than the writer of the story.

[Aura Blaize]

The story did reveal the process or we wouldn't have had a story to begin with. Do you even realize that if it wasn't an actual mindswap then Ghost Peter should've had no knowledge of what he supposedly did in Doc Ock's body because he would've never been in it to begin with?

If Peter was always Peter with just Doc Ock's brainwaves overridding his own then how did Ghost Peter end up with the knowledge of what Peter's brainwaves overridding Doc Ock's was doing in Doc Ock's body?

The story revealed that Peter got stabbed with that golden octobot. Then the next issue their brains were rewritten. We did NOT see the entire process.

We DO know that it wasn't an instant thing. Hell, the sheer act of what happens proves it wasn't a mind swap per se. Otherwise, Peter wouldn't be fighting SpOck because his "mind" would have been in the gold octobot. The whole story points to this being a "mind reformatting" as opposed to a mind swap.

It points to the Peter in Ock's body being a clone of his brain, pure and simple. The Peter Parker we see now is the original. That's the way Slott has meant for it to be, that's the way it IS. That should be the end of it really.