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  1. #571
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    another conversation point that's pretty jarring, the X-Men aren't "superheroes" when they save human lives and "doing mutant stuff" when they save mutant lives. Human lives arent inherently better and saving them isnt more noble or commendable.
    Even at the height of the extinction era, we saw X-Men saving normal people. Some of them were even grateful.

  2. #572
    Ninpuu - Shinobi Change! Striderblack01's Avatar
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    Hm.

    It seems like this animus has less to do with protecting humanity and more with critiquing the X-men.

    For the planetary scale threats, both humanity and mutants benefit from all superheroes, including the X-men.
    But on the day-to-day, humanity has the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, and nearly every Marvel superhero at it's disposal.
    While mutantkind only has the X-men, really.

    And they're currently fairly busy building a mutant nation - which is understandable to the fair-minded.
    I think humanity is going to be fine while our merry mutants figure stuff out.

    Again, there is zero indication that mutants have abandoned humans and refuse to save them.
    ---

    What really seems to be burning people's crotches is the referendum of Xavier's old tactics.

    Using superheroics to inspire humanity to be decent and non-genocidal...didn't work.
    That kind of 'credit to your race' mentality might break the color barrier in baseball, but it afforded mutants nothing.
    None of their few allies could muster any kind of lasting resistance, or broker any kind of lasting peace or change.
    The genocidal attempts continued undeterred.

    So why are we now policing mutant language and feelings when at the other side of the equation are literal murder bots?

    That mutants are now temporarily prioritizing the building of their own mutant nation and dealing with direct threats is only logical.
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  3. #573
    Mighty Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Striderblack01 View Post
    Hm.

    It seems like this animus has less to do with protecting humanity and more with critiquing the X-men.

    For the planetary scale threats, both humanity and mutants benefit from all superheroes, including the X-men.
    But on the day-to-day, humanity has the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, and nearly every Marvel superhero at it's disposal.
    While mutantkind only has the X-men, really.

    And they're currently fairly busy building a mutant nation - which is understandable to the fair-minded.
    I think humanity is going to be fine while our merry mutants figure stuff out.

    Again, there is zero indication that mutants have abandoned humans and refuse to save them.
    ---

    What really seems to be burning people's crotches is the referendum of Xavier's old tactics.

    Using superheroics to inspire humanity to be decent and non-genocidal...didn't work.
    That kind of 'credit to your race' mentality might break the color barrier in baseball, but it afforded mutants nothing.
    None of their few allies could muster any kind of lasting resistance, or broker any kind of lasting peace or change.
    The genocidal attempts continued undeterred.

    So why are we now policing mutant language and feelings when at the other side of the equation are literal murder bots?

    That mutants are now temporarily prioritizing the building of their own mutant nation and dealing with direct threats is only logical.
    It's a critique of the X-men because the X-men are superheroes. They should be held to a high standard. I'm not sure anyone has expectations for racists and bigots. There is nothing wrong with prioritizing mutants over humans. Considering their current state, that's fine. However, the X-men's current relationship towards saving regular humans is somewhat nonexistent. The criticism is that there is nothing to address it. As a result, it seems that condescending dialogue towards humans is the only thing some readers have and that's leading to certain views. Hickman, or another writer just needs to address this aspect in some way. It could be an offhand comment. Utopia had a team to handle this aspect, I don't see why Krakoa wouldn't.

    Besides the X-men's slogan is: saving a world that fears and hates them. It would be weird if it changed to: saving themselves from a world that fears and hates them. I don't think that's the case at all, but addressing it in some way would certainly put some at ease. I think that's fair. I don't see an issue with X-men saving regular humans. Why would this be problematic?
    Last edited by TheDeadSpace; 11-08-2019 at 10:10 PM.
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  4. #574
    Fantastic Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    I'm not even really opposed to them building a mutant nation. Having a safe place for mutants is a good thing. Its what the mansion was supposed to be in the first place. Both Krakoa and the mansion failed in that regards, since there's already been a massive terrorist attack and assassination of a leader. Its the way they're going about it I have a problem with. There's all the sinister underpinings, the maybe/maybe not clones that make every death a joke and every action scene a bore, and the way the entire thing has been set up for failure with the involvement of Sinister, Apocalypse and their ilk.

    And yes, having the series shit all over the original ideals of the X-men hurts. It basically says the entire 30+ years of comic books were a waste of time and a lost cause. That didn't have to be the case. This is a fictional universe under the control of writers and editors at Marvel. If they wanted the X-men to win, or at last have optimism and not be so grimdark, they could have made those stories. Instead they seem to be saying the last 30 years were a mistake.

    It is policing language a bit to be critical of all the 'humans are terrible' speeches we've been getting. Its just been bizarre to be seeing it from almost everybody without a single word in response from other people. And it feels really weird for such statements to be presented so matter of fact like when they're supposed to share a universe with, say, Ms. Marvel and Squirrel Girl comics. Its the kind of sentiment I used to see in a lot of hilariously edgy and dark manga like Gantz or Narutaru, and for it to be so central to the X-men is weird.

    Some of us just miss the X-men as superheroes too. After seeing them attack and rob the F4 at the beginning of HoX I can't imagine them working with any of the rest of the heroes in the Marvel U. I liked seeing characters like Wolverine and Beast on teams like the Avengers and for it to not be a big deal.
    Last edited by pkingdom; 11-08-2019 at 10:38 PM.

  5. #575
    Ninpuu - Shinobi Change! Striderblack01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    It's a critique of the X-men because the X-men are superheroes. They should be held to a high standard. I'm not sure anyone has expectations for racists and bigots. There is nothing wrong with prioritizing mutants over humans. Considering their current state, that's fine. However, the X-men's current relationship towards saving regular humans is somewhat nonexistent. The criticism is that there is nothing to address it. As a result, it seems that condescending dialogue towards humans is the only thing some readers have and that's leading to certain views. Hickman, or another writer just needs to address this aspect in some way. It could be an offhand comment. Utopia had a team to handle this aspect, I don't see why Krakoa wouldn't.

    Besides the X-men's slogan is: saving a world that fears and hates them. It would be weird if it changed to: saving themselves from a world that fears and hates them. I don't think that's the case at all, but addressing it in some way would certainly put some at ease. I think that's fair. I don't see an issue with X-men saving regular humans. Why would this be problematic?
    Never said it was problematic.

    Some vocal critics here felt the status quo from HOX/POX was rushed.
    Now that the books are taking a breath to explain and expand on it, they accuse the X-men of not saving humanity enough.
    Or feeling angry or lippy about murder bots and the people who make them.

    I think there's a lot of jumping to conclusions - calling the X-men isolationists, racists, supremacists, policing mutant thoughts, feelings, and language.
    And yet the stories have barely started.
    They're still launching #1's for Emma's sake.

    At this point, the X-men are more than mere superheroes.

    They're nation builders. I think that affords them some leeway, and don't feel the need to be overly critical.
    I mean, how many superheroes start and defend their own nations? How many consistently champion a people and defend them from the brink of extinction over and over?
    Anyway, I'm sure Krakoa will get to regular human-saving later on down the road.

    (Also, while I love Utopia, it wasn't as big, as nice, or as ambitious as Krakoa)

    ----
    Bonus pot-stirring:
    Considering all the genocide attempts (again. Plural. Genocide attempts.) why would it be weird if the X-men's slogan was changed to that?
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  6. #576
    Fantastic Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Striderblack01 View Post
    Never said it was problematic.

    Some vocal critics here felt the status quo from HOX/POX was rushed.
    Now that the books are taking a breath to explain and expand on it, they accuse the X-men of not saving humanity enough.
    Or feeling angry or lippy about murder bots and the people who make them.

    I think there's a lot of jumping to conclusions - calling the X-men isolationists, racists, supremacists, policing mutant thoughts, feelings, and language.
    And yet the stories have barely started.
    They're still launching #1's for Emma's sake.

    At this point, the X-men are more than mere superheroes.

    They're nation builders. I think that affords them some leeway, and don't feel the need to be overly critical.
    I mean, how many superheroes start and defend their own nations? How many consistently champion a people and defend them from the brink of extinction over and over?
    Anyway, I'm sure Krakoa will get to regular human-saving later on down the road.

    (Also, while I love Utopia, it wasn't as big, as nice, or as ambitious as Krakoa)

    ----
    Bonus pot-stirring:
    Considering all the genocide attempts (again. Plural. Genocide attempts.) why would it be weird if the X-men's slogan was changed to that?
    Nobody is upset that they are mad about the purple murder bots. They're upset that so many characters are acting like all of humanity is responsible for the murder bots. They aren't saying the racists are terrible; they're saying that all humans are terrible. Just for example, I see a few people on here respond to the weird Corsair situation not by saying Corsair is an ass, but HUMANS are all terrible.

    There are Marvel characters who only, or primarily, care about their nation/people over the rest of the world. Black Panther is often written that way. Thing is, its often considered a bad thing, or at least a thing people hold against them

  7. #577
    Mighty Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Striderblack01 View Post
    Never said it was problematic.

    Some vocal critics here felt the status quo from HOX/POX was rushed.
    Now that the books are taking a breath to explain and expand on it, they accuse the X-men of not saving humanity enough.
    Or feeling angry or lippy about murder bots and the people who make them.

    I think there's a lot of jumping to conclusions - calling the X-men isolationists, racists, supremacists, policing mutant thoughts, feelings, and language.
    And yet the stories have barely started.
    They're still launching #1's for Emma's sake.

    At this point, the X-men are more than mere superheroes.

    They're nation builders. I think that affords them some leeway, and don't feel the need to be overly critical.
    I mean, how many superheroes start and defend their own nations? How many consistently champion a people and defend them from the brink of extinction over and over?
    Anyway, I'm sure Krakoa will get to regular human-saving later on down the road.

    (Also, while I love Utopia, it wasn't as big, as nice, or as ambitious as Krakoa)

    ----
    Bonus pot-stirring:
    Considering all the genocide attempts (again. Plural. Genocide attempts.) why would it be weird if the X-men's slogan was changed to that?

    The problematic part of my post was intended as a rhetorical question. There shouldn't be anything wrong with saving humans; however, it seems to be a strong topic for discussion.

    I don't share some of the other views in regards to humans in the X-books, but with the way some X-men talk I can see how some are ending up at the view I mentioned in my post. Sure, some are jumping to conclusions, but I think behind some of the disagreements are valid criticisms. If fans are able to describe what they like about the current run and defend it with evidence, surely the opposite is just as plausible.

    More than superheroes, sure, but they are still superheroes.

    As for building a nation and having leeway, I think that point is arguable. Politics makes things messy and could take some of the heroism away from the X-men. Also, while a valid point, I'm not sure what this has to do with them saving humans as well as mutants. I mean, giving drugs is one thing, but what about normal heroics?

    Krakoa is larger, more ambitious, and has more mutants involved. So why isn't there a team to address human relations/heroics like Utopia?

    Changing the slogan would change the X-men. I'm not sure the X-men should be entirely focused on only saving their kind/themselves. For superheroes, that's odd and it isn't hopeful in anyway. Like I mentioned, having priority over themselves is fine, but the X-men have always gone that extra step to protect those that may not deserve it. It also plays into the topic on hand.
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  8. #578
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    And the same issue had both Dani and Roberto looking down at human society in their conversation, something that I pointed out in the spoiler topic, something you'd know if you actually read my posts rather than cherry picking them. Also, the fact that they are willing to help an unknown alien race but not help those downtrodden on Earth can actually end up making them look worse in comparison in that they'll help these unknown innocents in need millions of light years away but won't help humans in need despite them being right there on the same planet and instead look their noses down at them.
    This would be a compelling argument IF there was any evidence at all that they weren't willing to help the downtrodden on Earth. There isn't. There hasn't been, except maybe by implication, maybe we can read into the things they say. Like for example the very first law they come up with is about protecting mutants from humanity, right... oh... wait, no the reverse was true. The first law they came up with was protecting humans from mutants. Damn, so much for that argument.

    In fact... as a point of order, a drug eliminating mental illness goes farther towards uplifting the downtrodden than any number if spandex clad face punches, but lets not let that little fact get in the way of a good argument... Oh wait, its still not a good argument because they are still haven't shown the X-Men abandoning humanity.

    The leaps and mental gymnastics being used to condemn the X-Men in this, and similar threads, are stunning. We haven't even gotten through the first issues of the first wave of comics yet and people have apparently decided the X-Men have...
    ... Abandoned coexistence.
    ... Abandoned humanity.
    ... Become isolationists.
    ... Become segregationists
    ... Abandoned helping the human downtrodden
    ... Forced the separation of mutants from human families
    (I think that covers most of it but we can feel free edit in any more ridiculous accusations later)

    Its stunning because none of it has been stated or shown on panel. People are interpreting the smallest of words or actions, adding in a massive helping of assumptions and leaping to the most damning of all possible conclusions. All the while ignoring any and all things that hint (or outright state) something different. Again let me point out, the meta-narrative for the X-line right now is about the creation of the mutant state. Nowhere is it stated that this means they will not help out humanity, yet people accuse them of this because they haven't seen them solving human problems with punching and lasers yet. (Again pointing out that we are still on the literal first issues of the line).

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    Changing the slogan would change the X-men. I'm not sure the X-men should be entirely focused on only saving their kind/themselves. For superheroes, that's odd and it isn't hopeful in anyway. Like I mentioned, having priority over themselves is fine, but the X-men have always gone that extra step to protect those that may not deserve it. It also plays into the topic on hand.
    As I said above, shouldn't we afford them at least a few issues before we start assuming what they won't do? If Spiderman was involved in a massive meta story involving a superhuman civil war and every issue of his books were dealing with that are we going to assume that means he wouldn't stop a mugger? Why are we doing that here?
    Last edited by Kisinith; 11-09-2019 at 07:59 AM.

  9. #579
    Ninpuu - Shinobi Change! Striderblack01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    More than superheroes, sure, but they are still superheroes.

    As for building a nation and having leeway, I think that point is arguable. Politics makes things messy and could take some of the heroism away from the X-men. Also, while a valid point, I'm not sure what this has to do with them saving humans as well as mutants. I mean, giving drugs is one thing, but what about normal heroics?

    Krakoa is larger, more ambitious, and has more mutants involved. So why isn't there a team to address human relations/heroics like Utopia?

    Changing the slogan would change the X-men. I'm not sure the X-men should be entirely focused on only saving their kind/themselves. For superheroes, that's odd and it isn't hopeful in anyway. Like I mentioned, having priority over themselves is fine, but the X-men have always gone that extra step to protect those that may not deserve it. It also plays into the topic on hand.
    Yeah, tell that to the mutants who need saving.

    ---

    You heavily underestimate the logistics of building a nation.
    Housing, feeding, resurrecting millions of people, giving them laws and a government - it's not something you can do part-time.

    I would think the majority of Krakoans are peaceful, but I'm sure there are mutants who are 'fighters'.
    There might be some on their ranks willing to punch Sandman in the face, or whomever.
    They would need to be organized and trained, which takes time.

    Although, with tensions being so high, and the nation being so new, I could also understand a cooling of superheroics as a policy, and not just a logistical impracticality.
    I mean, how bad would diplomatic relations be if we had mutant newbies tearing up Main Streets everywhere trying to save the day?

    At any rate, I suggest we all wait and see.


    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Nobody is upset that they are mad about the purple murder bots. They're upset that so many characters are acting like all of humanity is responsible for the murder bots. They aren't saying the racists are terrible; they're saying that all humans are terrible. Just for example, I see a few people on here respond to the weird Corsair situation not by saying Corsair is an ass, but HUMANS are all terrible.

    There are Marvel characters who only, or primarily, care about their nation/people over the rest of the world. Black Panther is often written that way. Thing is, its often considered a bad thing, or at least a thing people hold against them
    Right.

    Who made the murder bots? Humans did.
    Who hates and fears mutants? Humans do.
    Sometimes it's governments, sometimes its independent militias, sometimes it's senators, or preachers, or mobs, or cops, etc, but it's always humans.
    Humanity is responsible.


    I keep ringing the genocide bell for a reason.
    It's not the type of thing that you can just walk away from unscathed - and I don't just mean physically.
    It scars people. It changes them forever. It changes generations upon generations.

    If you are uncomfortable with the way the X-men are speaking of humanity, you maybe underestimating the effect of having people wanting to murder you, for who you are, as a goal.

    It may be uncomfortable. It may be upsetting. But it's realistic.
    And not nearly as upsetting as the events that led to these changes.
    Last edited by Striderblack01; 11-09-2019 at 09:14 AM.
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  10. #580
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    This would be a compelling argument IF there was any evidence at all that they weren't willing to help the downtrodden on Earth. There isn't. There hasn't been, except maybe by implication, maybe we can read into the things they say. Like for example the very first law they come up with is about protecting mutants from humanity, right... oh... wait, no the reverse was true. The first law they came up with was protecting humans from mutants. Damn, so much for that argument.

    In fact... as a point of order, a drug eliminating mental illness goes farther towards uplifting the downtrodden than any number if spandex clad face punches, but lets not let that little fact get in the way of a good argument... Oh wait, its still not a good argument because they are still haven't shown the X-Men abandoning humanity.

    The leaps and mental gymnastics being used to condemn the X-Men in this, and similar threads, are stunning. We haven't even gotten through the first issues of the first wave of comics yet and people have apparently decided the X-Men have...
    ... Abandoned coexistence.
    ... Abandoned humanity.
    ... Become isolationists.
    ... Become segregationists
    ... Abandoned helping the human downtrodden
    ... Forced the separation of mutants from human families
    (I think that covers most of it but we can feel free edit in any more ridiculous accusations later)

    Its stunning because none of it has been stated or shown on panel. People are interpreting the smallest of words or actions, adding in a massive helping of assumptions and leaping to the most damning of all possible conclusions. All the while ignoring any and all things that hint (or outright state) something different. Again let me point out, the meta-narrative for the X-line right now is about the creation of the mutant state. Nowhere is it stated that this means they will not help out humanity, yet people accuse them of this because they haven't seen them solving human problems with punching and lasers yet. (Again pointing out that we are still on the literal first issues of the line).



    As I said above, shouldn't we afford them at least a few issues before we start assuming what they won't do? If Spiderman was involved in a massive meta story involving a superhuman civil war and every issue of his books were dealing with that are we going to assume that means he wouldn't stop a mugger? Why are we doing that here?
    Exac-fockin'-tatiously! (at this entire post, and especially the bolded).
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  11. #581
    Mighty Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Striderblack01 View Post
    Yeah, tell that to the mutants who need saving.

    ---

    You heavily underestimate the logistics of building a nation.
    Housing, feeding, resurrecting millions of people, giving them laws and a government - it's not something you can do part-time.

    I would think the majority of Krakoans are peaceful, but I'm sure there are mutants who are 'fighters'.
    There might be some on their ranks willing to punch Sandman in the face, or whomever.
    They would need to be organized and trained, which takes time.

    Although, with tensions being so high, and the nation being so new, I could also understand a cooling of superheroics as a policy, and not just a logistical impracticality.
    I mean, how bad would diplomatic relations be if we had mutant newbies tearing up Main Streets everywhere trying to save the day?

    At any rate, I suggest we all wait and see.

    I'm not sure what you mean by, "tell that to the mutants that need saving". What would making the time to work on human relations have to do with saving mutants? I'm not entirely sure on the point you were trying to make. Self preservation doesn't necessarily provide a hopeful outlook on the mutant situation. It makes the situation look grim and dark. Saving regular humans shows that the X-men are still morally superior to those they fight against. At the same time, it makes them look more heroic. As superheroes I still think it's necessary. Does only rescuing mutants mean they aren't superheroes? No, but going the extra mile is something few would do. It's something the X-men would do and is one of the reasons I favor them as a team to the Avengers. Missing that core aspect in the current world building and development of Krakoa is odd, and a criticism that seems fair.

    As for the nation building, yes it involves a lot. However, there are a lot of X-men that aren't in any books. A simple team could be referenced. That would solve quite a few of the issues with the current direction.

    Waiting does seem to be the only solution. I'm all for that, however I don't think that means that the issue should be swept under the rug as some responses seem to imply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    As I said above, shouldn't we afford them at least a few issues before we start assuming what they won't do? If Spiderman was involved in a massive meta story involving a superhuman civil war and every issue of his books were dealing with that are we going to assume that means he wouldn't stop a mugger? Why are we doing that here?
    I think the criticism is fair for the time being. With all of the world building, it's a weird thing to leave out and as I mentioned, some dialogue doesn't inspire confidence. Do I think the X-men are monsters for ignoring this aspect, no, I don't agree with some of those views. Despite this, I do agree that waiting for other issues is the only way to address the problem. I would hope that the problem being addressed later on would put some users at ease. That being said, I disagree with the Spider-man comparison. Fans are concerned about the X-men going the extra mile to save humans. I don't think Spider-man avoiding muggers is comparable. Spider-man failing to acknowledge random innocents in comparison to his family/loved ones while fighting a superhuman civil war seems to make more sense to me. In that case, yes it would be odd and I'd hope it would be addressed sooner than later.
    Last edited by TheDeadSpace; 11-09-2019 at 01:23 PM.
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  12. #582
    Fantastic Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Striderblack01 View Post



    Right.

    Who made the murder bots? Humans did.
    Who hates and fears mutants? Humans do.
    Sometimes it's governments, sometimes its independent militias, sometimes it's senators, or preachers, or mobs, or cops, etc, but it's always humans.
    Humanity is responsible.


    I keep ringing the genocide bell for a reason.
    It's not the type of thing that you can just walk away from unscathed - and I don't just mean physically.
    It scars people. It changes them forever. It changes generations upon generations.

    If you are uncomfortable with the way the X-men are speaking of humanity, you maybe underestimating the effect of having people wanting to murder you, for who you are, as a goal.

    It may be uncomfortable. It may be upsetting. But it's realistic.
    And not nearly as upsetting as the events that led to these changes.
    That's such a fallacy.

    WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE AGE OF APOCALYPSE? MUTANTS!
    WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR FOR THE WORLDWIDE MUTATION BOMBS? MUTANTS!
    WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE GLOBAL WINTER APOCALYPSE? MUTANTS!
    SOMETIMES ITS INDIVIDUALS, SOMETIMES ITS ORGANIZATIONS, SOMETIMES ITS SELF-DESCRIBED GODS, BUT ITS ALWAYS MUTANTS!

    Acting like the entire human race is responsible for the murder bots and genocide attempts is no different than blaming all mutants for Apocalypse, Emma Frosts' multiple terrorist attacks, and everything Magneto does. Its awful when human characters do it, and mutants shouldn't get a pass for doing the same.

  13. #583
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    That's such a fallacy.

    WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE AGE OF APOCALYPSE? MUTANTS!
    WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR FOR THE WORLDWIDE MUTATION BOMBS? MUTANTS!
    WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE GLOBAL WINTER APOCALYPSE? MUTANTS!
    SOMETIMES ITS INDIVIDUALS, SOMETIMES ITS ORGANIZATIONS, SOMETIMES ITS SELF-DESCRIBED GODS, BUT ITS ALWAYS MUTANTS!

    Acting like the entire human race is responsible for the murder bots and genocide attempts is no different than blaming all mutants for Apocalypse, Emma Frosts' multiple terrorist attacks, and everything Magneto does. Its awful when human characters do it, and mutants shouldn't get a pass for doing the same.
    " Mutants, Mutants, Mutants Mutants!"
    Settle down Jane
    GrindrStone(D)

  14. #584
    Mighty Member tuck frump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    That's such a fallacy.

    WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE AGE OF APOCALYPSE? MUTANTS!
    WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR FOR THE WORLDWIDE MUTATION BOMBS? MUTANTS!
    WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE GLOBAL WINTER APOCALYPSE? MUTANTS!
    SOMETIMES ITS INDIVIDUALS, SOMETIMES ITS ORGANIZATIONS, SOMETIMES ITS SELF-DESCRIBED GODS, BUT ITS ALWAYS MUTANTS!

    Acting like the entire human race is responsible for the murder bots and genocide attempts is no different than blaming all mutants for Apocalypse, Emma Frosts' multiple terrorist attacks, and everything Magneto does. Its awful when human characters do it, and mutants shouldn't get a pass for doing the same.
    Do you need your inhaler?9

  15. #585
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by, "tell that to the mutants that need saving". What would making the time to work on human relations have to do with saving mutants? I'm not entirely sure on the point you were trying to make. Self preservation doesn't necessarily provide a hopeful outlook on the mutant situation. It makes the situation look grim and dark. Saving regular humans shows that the X-men are still morally superior to those they fight against. At the same time, it makes them look more heroic. As superheroes I still think it's necessary. Does only rescuing mutants mean they aren't superheroes? No, but going the extra mile is something few would do. It's something the X-men would do and is one of the reasons I favor them as a team to the Avengers. Missing that core aspect in the current world building and development of Krakoa is odd, and a criticism that seems fair.

    As for the nation building, yes it involves a lot. However, there are a lot of X-men that aren't in any books. A simple team could be referenced. That would solve quite a few of the issues with the current direction.

    Waiting does seem to be the only solution. I'm all for that, however I don't think that means that the issue should be swept under the rug as some responses seem to imply.

    I think the criticism is fair for the time being. With all of the world building, it's a weird thing to leave out and as I mentioned, some dialogue doesn't inspire confidence. Do I think the X-men are monsters for ignoring this aspect, no, I don't agree with some of those views. Despite this, I do agree that waiting for other issues is the only way to address the problem. I would hope that the problem being addressed later on would put some users at ease. That being said, I disagree with the Spider-man comparison. Fans are concerned about the X-men going the extra mile to save humans. I don't think Spider-man avoiding muggers is comparable. Spider-man failing to acknowledge random innocents in comparison to his family/loved ones while fighting a superhuman civil war seems to make more sense to me. In that case, yes it would be odd and I'd hope it would be addressed sooner than later.
    Nowhere has it been stated they aren't superheroes anymore and aren't willing to help normal people. This whole argument is a fallacy based on fans misperception and/or misunderstanding. Now, you want the Marvel writers to waste time and panel space (which is already at a premium) to disprove something that was never stated, and realistically no one has any reason to assume to be true anyway. A fan theory that is in direct conflict with the strategy of national engagement adopted by Krakoa, direct conflict with the first agreed upon law of Krakoa, and direct conflict with decades of X-Men history.

    The Krakoan nation is (based off of its laws, its diplomatic strategy, its military tactics and actions thus far) one based off of enlightened self interest and benevolence. So far there is zero evidence of malevolence only assumptions of it.

    You also missed the point of the Spider-man comparison. Spider-man has been involved in many long story arcs and events where he did not spend any time at all acknowledging random innocents. People didn't freak out and assume he wasn't a friendly neighborhood hero anymore, because not everything needs to be constantly reinforced. Until we get a scene of the X-Men ignoring a human crisis or talking about ignoring a human crisis we have no reason to assume they would.

    So far the closest to that you get is 1) A conversation between Magneto and a group of spies pretending to be diplomats. 2) A discussion laced with disgust between Cyclops and Storm while attacking an anti-mutant research facility filled with kidnapped mutant children who were to be experimented upon (disgust and contempt is totally understandable). 3) Xavier's worldwide telepathic speech taken way out of context and focusing on one sentence in it, while ignoring everything else he said.

    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    That's such a fallacy.

    WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE AGE OF APOCALYPSE? MUTANTS!
    WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR FOR THE WORLDWIDE MUTATION BOMBS? MUTANTS!
    WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE GLOBAL WINTER APOCALYPSE? MUTANTS!
    SOMETIMES ITS INDIVIDUALS, SOMETIMES ITS ORGANIZATIONS, SOMETIMES ITS SELF-DESCRIBED GODS, BUT ITS ALWAYS MUTANTS!

    Acting like the entire human race is responsible for the murder bots and genocide attempts is no different than blaming all mutants for Apocalypse, Emma Frosts' multiple terrorist attacks, and everything Magneto does. Its awful when human characters do it, and mutants shouldn't get a pass for doing the same.
    The whole of the human race is not responsible for murder-bots and repeated attempts at genocide, true. However just about every government in the MU is. The individuals in the country are sadly a secondary consideration to that, at best. The continued outright hostility of the governments and institutions largely renders the opinions of the individuals moot.
    Last edited by Kisinith; 11-09-2019 at 02:42 PM.

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