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  1. #31
    Spectacular Member Criticalfan's Avatar
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    The mutants have the Moon, Mars, and are expanding towards the Shi'Ar Empire and the Dominions.

    The humans have been segregated to one measly planet, and even not all of it.

    </hottake>

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Knives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    No. Hickman isn't.

    Building a nation/haven is segregation now?

    Apparently mutants must be forced to live among humans, and the fact that they have a nation or a place where they cannot be hunted and killed is wrong.

    I begin to understand how Jews and slaves felt in the past.

  3. #33
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    Which is probably part of the point. Yes, the X-Men are making great advances, but where is it taking them? What does it mean for the precogs and any other mutant who just isn't allowed in? Is it practical to just shut yourself away?
    Seems practical at first. But put a lot of dangerous people who give zero damns to mutants on same place doesn't look good

  4. #34
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    In-universe, yes. Quite obviously. Xavier has explicitly and publicly abandoned integration as a goal and embraced Magneto's militant separatist ideology. (But then, I'm still not convinced Xavier is in his right mind or that he's even really Xavier, but I digress...)

    On a meta-level, I don't know enough about Hickman or his political views to gauge. I'd like to think he'll use drama to explore the costs and benefits of different ideologies in order to get readers to think rather than just cheerlead for nationalism via wish fulfillment fantasy. But, I'm not holding my breath.

    We'll see.

  5. #35
    Welcome Back Spidey Kurolegacy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrezValentine View Post
    Modern society was built through the violent exploitation of other people by europeans, particularly natives of America and Africa. It's not like it was an entirely peaceful process or anything.
    And nowhere did I insinuate that it was. However, the modern world would be nowhere close to where it is in advancement if every different culture just remained closed off to themselves.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knives View Post
    Apparently mutants must be forced to live among humans, and the fact that they have a nation or a place where they cannot be hunted and killed is wrong.

    I begin to understand how Jews and slaves felt in the past.
    That's how I feel too. Marauders showed that anti-mutant sentiment is still out there. Still in the US government which is trying to find out if Krakoa has security weaknesses. A treaty country is having anti-mutant protests to convince mutants to not go through the portal.

    This is an allegory for the Exodus in the bible. Like the Jewish people escaping from slavery and violent oppression in Egypt, the mutants have now escaped from violent oppression on Earth and formed their own promised land. They are not making the solution perfect either, just like the promised land in the bible, the stories of the bible showed there was corruption in the nascent old Israel government and people trying to keep power in spite of being told otherwise by the signs from God. (Don't get me wrong I am not super religious, I did read the bible though, it is one of the greatest works of literature in all of history and the King James Bible formed the foundation of the modern English language because most people learned to read by reading the bible).

    But just like ancient Israel, Krakoa is not perfect and the people on Krakoa are not all perfect, there are good and bad people in the promised land, and the great story to be told here is how well they can do maintaining that unity of purpose in the upcoming conflicts and dramas to come.
    We are MUTANT..Krakoa, FOREVER!!! “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

  7. #37
    "Berserker Claw!" Wild Fang X's Avatar
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    No. I am missing the part where building a nation-state is considered segregation or fascist. I find it a little disconcerting that people are quick to label something like an oppressed peoples building their own society where said people are able to live in peace and become economically viable/successful on their own terms, and that is not hostile to the majority in any way as segregationist and troubling. Many would do well to research human history, for many a nation have been founded on somewhat dubious means. Then again, I am of the type that believes in "By Any Means Necessary".
    Last edited by Wild Fang X; 10-23-2019 at 08:03 AM.
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  8. #38
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    And nowhere did I insinuate that it was. However, the modern world would be nowhere close to where it is in advancement if every different culture just remained closed off to themselves.
    Well most cultures were closed off to themselves. They mostly encountered other civilizations due to explorations/invasions.
    "Cable was right!"

  9. #39
    Mighty Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoCoBandz View Post
    What some call segregation I call pragmatism.
    Agreed.

    We have seen the mutants spend years trying to peacefully coexist with humans only to be repeatedly faced with genocide or subjugation from many humans. We also know from Moria X that Xavier's way doesn't work.

    The mutant state idea is more like the former African slaves that didn't want to stick around in the Americas/Caribbean and went back to Africa to found the nation of Liberia.

    I don't think Hickman is encouraging segregation.

    Mutants are the next stage of human evolution in the Marvel universe and are the homo sapiens replacement.
    Despite what bigots think the various ethnic groups, religions, LGBTQ people, ect are not replacing others and we are all part of the human race. So fictional mutants and real world minorities aren't the same in that regard.

    Also the human race has tried segregation repeatedly and it really doesn't work in the long term.
    Last edited by chamber-music; 10-23-2019 at 08:14 AM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    That's how I feel too. Marauders showed that anti-mutant sentiment is still out there. Still in the US government which is trying to find out if Krakoa has security weaknesses. A treaty country is having anti-mutant protests to convince mutants to not go through the portal.

    This is an allegory for the Exodus in the bible.
    No. It's a partial allegory for the re-establishment of Israel after World War II. The difference is there aren't any Palestinian Arab analogues already living on Krakoa for the mutants to fight with.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by chamber-music View Post
    The mutant state idea is more like the former African slaves that didn't want to stick around in the Americas/Caribbean and went back to Africa to found the nation of Liberia.
    Not quite. Read up on the history of Liberia, specifically the relationship between the former American slaves and the native African people that were already living there.

  12. #42
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    It's all outreach, trade and diplomacy until both sides have armed and trained the entirrty of their respective populations...

    The building up of hostilities between the genetic divides in-universe and the fandom factions IRL is deliberate, because "Marvel vs. X-Men" must be set up, to have mutants and non-mutants fight the final war that will kill everyone and destroy everything and leave a blank space for creatives and editorials to build a new setting on, hopefully with more nuances and variety in human attitudes to mutants, and the two opposing pillars of the Marvel franchise - X-Men and the non-X-Men - finally reconciled. But how long to reach that endgame? Who knows.
    Last edited by Londo Bellian; 10-23-2019 at 08:22 AM.
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  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    No. It's a partial allegory for the re-establishment of Israel after World War II. The difference is there aren't any Palestinian Arab analogues already living on Krakoa for the mutants to fight with.
    I thought about that, but that Israel was founded by the entire world feeling guilty about WWII and not stopping the Holocaust.

    Whereas the mutants had to establish Krakoa on their own by fleeing from subjugation and genocide. That's why I think it fits the establishment of ancient biblical Israel because in that historical story the Jewish people were fleeing from subjugation and slavery in Egypt.

    Modern Israel was supported by many nations in it's establishment.

    Krakoa, very much like ancient Israel, had to establish their nation and then strive to get recognition and peace from their neighbors.

    But there are comparisons that work for both ancient Israel and modern Israel, and of course thankfully there are no displaced people on Krakoa to be upset about their land being taken. Although, I imagine the Arkoa storyline might bring something into play at some point.
    We are MUTANT..Krakoa, FOREVER!!! “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Fang X View Post
    No. I am missing the part where building a nation-state is considered segregation or fascist. I find it a little disconcerting that people are quick to label something like an oppressed peoples building their own society where said people are able to live in peace and become economically viable/successful on their own terms, and that is not hostile to the majority in any way as segregationist and troubling. Many would do well to research human history, for many a nation have been founded on somewhat dubious means. Then again, I am of the type that believes in "By Any Means Necessary".
    I also find it disconcerting. I’m seeing the same sort of mindset that informs #notallmen and #alllivesmatter being applied here, and it utterly misses the point here just as it does there. The notion that a demographic of people should be obligated to “tough it out” in an environment where they are subjected to systemic and institutionalized oppression and violence simply because “not everybody thinks that way” is patently absurd. I have a black Australian friend who recently moved from NYC back to Australia because he did not feel safe in a nation where police officers are allowed to murder black people in the streets. He and I are very close friends, but my friendship and my values are not going to protect him from systemic violence. He deserves to be in a place where he feels safe. So do mutants. It really is as simple as that. It isn’t the job of the oppressed to educate their oppressors or fix the systems designed to keep them down, even though it so often falls on them to do so.
    Last edited by The Quiet Councilor; 10-23-2019 at 08:31 AM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    I thought about that, but that Israel was founded by the entire world feeling guilty about WWII and not stopping the Holocaust.
    The U.S. and West Germany felt guilty, not the entire world.

    Zionists were not exactly popular. Read up on the British Mandate of Palestine.

    Whereas the mutants had to establish Krakoa on their own by fleeing from subjugation and genocide. That's why I think it fits the establishment of ancient biblical Israel because in that historical story the Jewish people were fleeing from subjugation and slavery in Egypt.

    Modern Israel was supported by many nations in it's establishment.

    Krakoa, very much like ancient Israel, had to establish their nation and then strive to get recognition and peace from their neighbors.
    You seem to have forgotten what happened after the Exodus.

    The Hebrews didn't peacefully settle in Canaan and start petitioning their neighbors for recognition. They invaded Canaan and conquered, displaced, and sometimes slaughtered the native people already living there, justifying it on the basis that their god had told them Canaan was theirs.

    The Hebrews weren't unique in this regard. They just weren't behaving any better or differently than the rest of humanity.

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