Julius Belmont vs Zero (MMX series)

[BitVyper]

No boss powers for Zero. MMX series stuff only. Standard Khazan battle.

[Guy Smiley]

Without game mechanics, pretty sure Zero stomps here.

Defensively, as a reploid, Zero should be massively more difficult to physically damage than anything in Castlevania, and unlike Dracula he's got no particular weakness to holy weapons. I'm not sure Julius can even scratch him. If this were Shanoa, or Soma, or Alucard, or Johnathan/Charlotte, or any of the other Castlevania characters with supernatural powers, magic spells, or an arsenal of blatantly magical equipment beyond the standard Belmont loadout, I'd say otherwise, but I'm not sure the Vampire Killer is supposed to do more than 'be holy-element' and thus do lots of damage to supernatural evil. (Which Zero isn't.) Similarly, his subweapons are stuff like holy water, a holy cross, and a supply of mundane throwing axes and knives. I don't recall if he gets the stopwatch, but even then I'm not sure what he's *doing* to Zero while time is stopped.

Offensively, Zero has a buster that *can* damage reploids, and even one-shot lesser robots. It should absolutely annihilate a human being like Julius if it connects, and I don't recall Julius having any protective equipment that could take a hit from something of that caliber. Zero also has a beam sword that does way more damage than his buster. That definitely kills Julius if it connects. Zero may or may not be stronger than the original Mega Man. Without anything equivalent to Rock's fortress-lifting feat, I wouldn't try to argue it in a Rock vs. Zero rumble, but Zero is generally on par with X and the reploids partially based on X, and X is supposed to be a straight upgrade of Rock. It's quite possible Zero has some ridiculous strength hidden in his chassis.

Mobilitywise, IIRC Julius has a distinct advantage. Double jumps, backdashes, etc. compared to Zero's... front dash IIRC? He should be able to play keepaway from Zero for a decent time, but eventually he'll tire out, or Zero will get lucky, and that should be it for Julius.

[The Chou Lives]

Julius killed Dracula so hard that he did not come back normal but as inheritors (Soma And Graham.) That’s pretty hard.

It should also be noted each Belmont down the generation is more super human than the last. It should also be worth mentioning that the Belmonts all gave Dracula blood line in them ( As Alucard himself and Drac are Belmont’s in Lords Of Shadow. In other two contributes it’s noted that Alucard either bedded Sofia Belmont or in other, Trepes blood in their veins. So yeah.)

So yeah each Belmont is more super natural than the last. Also does not hurt the Belnadies Blood mixed in too. The lineage power is not just holy, it’s legit magic/energy power. Thatbwhip is in reality a Freakken light saber magic whip.

And Julius is like the best that ever existed in that time line. Plus all Zero does is does and gets rebuilt like Capcom Optimus or something.

[master of read]

Julius killed Dracula so hard that he did not come back normal but as inheritors (Soma And Graham.) That’s pretty hard.

It should also be noted each Belmont down the generation is more super human than the last. It should also be worth mentioning that the Belmonts all gave Dracula blood line in them ( As Alucard himself and Drac are Belmont’s in Lords Of Shadow. In other two contributes it’s noted that Alucard either bedded Sofia Belmont or in other, Trepes blood in their veins. So yeah.)

So yeah each Belmont is more super natural than the last. Also does not hurt the Belnadies Blood mixed in too. The lineage power is not just holy, it’s legit magic/energy power. Thatbwhip is in reality a Freakken light saber magic whip.

And Julius is like the best that ever existed in that time line. Plus all Zero does is does and gets rebuilt like Capcom Optimus or something.

sofia getting down with alucard is considered non-canon.

also, while julius is credited with perma-killing drac in the demon castle war, we really don't know how he did it. and he doesn't take sole credit for the feat since he said that he didn't do it alone.

but yeah, J is hella-strong.

[BitVyper]

but I'm not sure the Vampire Killer is supposed to do more than 'be holy-element' and thus do lots of damage to supernatural evil

He can destroy 20+ foot tall fully metal enemies with it and zero indication that this is due to any kind of specifically evil-targetting effect, furthermore I'm like 80% certain all the inanimate stone he can smash with it is morally neutral at worst. The whip is just ALSO specifically vampire kryptonite, but it was being used for monster killing before it was ever vampire killer too. Show me where the games say that he's only smashing stone because it's evil stone.

Beyond that, Julius' ult was destroying big parts of Dracula's castle in the background.

It should absolutely annihilate a human being like Julius if it connects

Julius is pretty tanky. Soma had to absolutely unload on the guy just to very briefly incapacitate him, and Soma has roughly the same damage dealing ability he has (aside the background destroying feat). Beyond that, being a reploid isn't a feat outside of being made of metal, and it takes Zero a lot of sustained fire to destroy any reploids that actually DO have feats.


Edit: Just to address this:

Without game mechanics...

HP and Attack stats are game mechanics. We can't say that Julius is so many times more powerful because he does X damage to a certain enemy. That doesn't mean he didn't spend a good couple minutes with Soma throwing everything and the kitchen sink at him or that he hasn't destroyed walls and giant armour monsters. The Soma fight in particular is specifically canon as there's absolutely no way Soma gets through that corridor without pummeling Julius. There's no way for the game's story to happen without Julius eating all those hits.

[Guy Smiley]

He can destroy 20+ foot tall fully metal enemies with it and zero indication that this is due to any kind of specifically evil-targetting effect, furthermore I'm like 80% certain all the inanimate stone he can smash with it is morally neutral at worst. The whip is just ALSO specifically vampire kryptonite, but it was being used for monster killing before it was ever vampire killer too. Show me where the games say that he's only smashing stone because it's evil stone.

The stone-smashing isn't a feat for the whip, it's a feat for Julius, since he can also break those walls with throwing axes, etc. In fact, I suspect he can break them with holy water, which is one of the reasons I say things like 'game mechanics aside'. That isn't to say that I think Julius is capable of rending stone or cleaving through metal with every attack: Those walls are notably *crumbling* stone - specifically weaker areas than the surrounding structure of Castlevania that he certainly does not bust through like the Kool-Aid Man on a direct path to Dracula's sanctum. To note - I *don't* think he's doing the equivalent of slapping things with a wet noodle: The Vampire Killer hits hard enough to break candle sconces, knock apart animated skeletons and suits of armor, (but generally is not shown to *shear through* that armor) one-shot zombies, and literally explode bats. It's easily a lethal weapon even without the holy element. That said, in later games it's often shown to be not terribly effective against enemies like Iron Golem, Final Armor, and so on.

X and Zero are the products of a civilization with explicit *advanced material and metallurgical sciences*. The reploids often incorporate materials like Ceratanium and Titanium-X in their structures that blow modern-day materials out of the water, not to mention whatever the heck Met hats are made of. They regularly take hits from lasers, particle beams, massive rocks, atomic fire, and futuristic missiles, amongst other things. And unlike Axe Armors and so on, they're actually solidly contructed and held together by more material instead of some sort of poltergeist.

MM_X_Titanium-X.png

Basically, I'm saying I think MMX deals with higher scales of damage in general, and I'm not sure a whip, even one wielded by a guy capable of breaking stone walls with it, is enough to register on that scale. Effectively, I think they're at least on the scale of the aforementioned Iron Golem and Final Armor enemies.

Beyond that, Julius' ult was destroying big parts of Dracula's castle in the background.

Yyyes, but no. Julius' ult was doing some sort of suction effect, which appears to have loosened stone from the castle in the background, which then continues dropping rocks in the background fro the rest of the fight. It does not appear to have done any direct damage to the structure, since he never actually hits it with the energy from the move, and it does *no damage to the room full of broken pillars he's using it in.* It also isn't strong enough to pull Soma in from a few yards away if Soma so much as takes a brisk walk in the other direction. These are contradictory results *from the same feat,* and again a reason I say things like "ignoring game mechanics" a lot.

That said, I forgot he had it, and had to look up the battle to see what you were talking about. It does appear to be something that could damage Zero if Zero got sucked into it, but see the 'Soma briskly walking away' scenario for how likely I think that is.

Julius is pretty tanky. Soma had to absolutely unload on the guy just to very briefly incapacitate him, and Soma has roughly the same damage dealing ability he has (aside the background destroying feat).

This I'm willing to concede. More notably, Julius is pointed out to be *holding back* in that fight. Given the reasoning Chou mentions above of Julius being the last in a line of more and more explicitly supernatural and superhuman dudes, (which again, I'd totally forgotten) we even have an explanation for why this is. Which we *need* because of the powers consistent with presentation rule Rumbles uses. If Julius was, lorewise, supposed to be a normal human with a magic whip, I'd definitely consider his showing against Soma as inconsistent with his presentation. And again, I'd be pointing at it as another reason I say things like 'game mechanics aside.'

Edit: Just to address this:

HP and Attack stats are game mechanics. We can't say that Julius is so many times more powerful because he does X damage to a certain enemy. That doesn't mean he didn't spend a good couple minutes with Soma throwing everything and the kitchen sink at him or that he hasn't destroyed walls and giant armour monsters. The Soma fight in particular is specifically canon as there's absolutely no way Soma gets through that corridor without pummeling Julius. There's no way for the game's story to happen without Julius eating all those hits.

It's totally reasonable to say "Hey, Julius and Soma have a big tussle at this point in the plot, and Julius takes a bunch of hits from Soma to defeat and is generally a tough battle. (in the average playthrough)" It's just that both series have a lot of lore as well, both in- and out-of-game and that is generally a better feat source than game mechanics.

If a crumbling wall is programmed to take 3 hits from an attack before breaking, and character X has a feather joke weapon that hits but does no damage, it's not really a feat that character X can break walls with a feather, it's a programming oversight. Sonic the Hedgehog isn't really very fast in a lot of the games he features in, just comparing his movement speed with the tiles or background, but we generally ascribe him the speed he shows in cutscenes or that the stage he's in is supposed to represent. (Otherwise Super Sonic is chasing a spaceship going at a cool 20 mph in Sonic 3, etc.) Mario can kill the Angry Sun with the right power-up, but we don't consider him a star-buster. Most RPGs don't acknowledge that levelling up is a thing in-game, and getting shot in a cutscene is far more fatal than getting shot in a battle is in those games for exactly that reason. A boss you beat who then beomes playable can easily have only 1/100 of his boss HP. (*cough Julius Mode cough*) Game mechanics are often divorced from the plot, and *that's* why I make statements like "Without game mechanics...".

Soma can win that fight by hitting Julius with a legendary sword 20-30 times. Sounds tankier than Luke Cage, right? He can also win it by using the Apprentice Witch Soul and throwing cats at the guy. Sounds a lot less tanky, right? It's not really quantifiable beyond "Hey, the dude *should* be pretty tanky since Soma usually has to whale on him a bunch for the boss fight that canonically happens." And I'm cool with that logic, again, as long as it's consistent with the character's presentation, which in this case it is.