X-MEN GIANT SIZE JEAN GREY & EMMA FROST by Jonathan Hickman & Russell Dauterman

[Tycon]

Are y’all purposefully ignoring the context of her taking down Sabretooth and Emma tried to just before and it didn’t work? It was showing Creed’s mental fortitude and only by working together with Jean were they able to shut him down. But nope, Jean is just a mindless dope who can’t sit down on her own without asking at least three nearby men around her if it’s safe while Emma carries an eight-inch strap at all times.

[Celestialbodies]

Are y’all purposefully ignoring the context of her taking down Sabretooth and Emma tried to just before and it didn’t work? It was showing Creed’s mental fortitude and only by working together with Jean were they able to shut him down. But nope, Jean is just a mindless dope who can’t sit down on her own without asking at least three nearby men around her if it’s safe while Emma carries an eight-inch strap at all times.

For perspective, again not about her powers or feats, just her presentation Jean has literally just returned from death through ressurection by a cosmic firebird she should be more equipped to deal with the dangers of a mission. And quieting a helpless Sabes does not refute that...and this was decades ago.

[The Quiet Councilor]

Which brings home the larger points, Hickman could easily write her as more active even if it's only in her lines. But we haven't gotten much from him, and what little we have, it's so far away from what we've seen from her previously. Hell he's made it a point to give several characters just that character moments to show their drives, and motivations, or interests. Jean has not had much of that yet, and it's easy to say wait and see but based on what I've seen I don't think he has much of a plan for her but maybe I'm wrong.





It's not only that it her overall presentation, from the return to the Marvel Girl costume to her rather passive approach, perhaps if what she was doing was stressed as impressive rather than pathetic it would have come off more effective. That said I'll give credit where credit is due, his Charles, Mags, Apoc, Polaris, Mystique, Destiny, Emma, Exodus, Sinister, Moira, Logan are all solid. But that does draw more attention to his underperforming Jean.

The Marvel Girl stuff is intentional, though, and Jean is all over DoX—particularly X-Force. I can’t imagine she’ll be getting that much spotlight only to be shown as passive. You may not be impressed my the Sabertooth moment, but Hickman showed he knows she has some fire under the surface.

[Silver Fang]

For perspective, again not about her powers or feats, just her presentation Jean has literally just returned from death she should be more equipped to deal with the dangers of a mission. And quieting a helpless Sabes does not refute that...and this was decades ago.

Agreed. And with the panel you posted, Jean clobbering him was more impressive there because he was actually dangerous back then. It's not impressive now.

Like I said, just a modern writer rehashing something that was done better 20 years ago & has lost all meaning today. Tends to happen a lot with Deadpool, Wolverine, and Creed.

[The Quiet Councilor]

For perspective, again not about her powers or feats, just her presentation Jean has literally just returned from death through ressurection by a cosmic firebird she should be more equipped to deal with the dangers of a mission. And quieting a helpless Sabes does not refute that...and this was decades ago.

Why should she be more equipped? She’s been dead not fighting the never ending war like the rest of them.

[Celestialbodies]

The Marvel Girl stuff is intentional, though, and Jean is all over DoX—particularly X-Force. I can’t imagine she’ll be getting that much spotlight only to be shown as passive. You may not be impressed my the Sabertooth moment, but Hickman showed he knows she has some fire under the surface.

I'm based my opinion on Hickmans work not the work of a writer we haven't read yet, based solely on what he's done so far I'm unimpressed especially when he's done more with characters he's written far less than Jean. That and he'll be writing this issue, not the writer of X-force. As far as Sabes is concerned see the above post.

[Celestialbodies]

Why should she be more equipped? She’s been dead not fighting the never ending war like the rest of them.

For the same reasons you wouldn't expect Logan, or Scott, or Ororo to behave that way. These are seasoned X-men and they've seen worst, for Jean specifically she experienced worst.

[Celestialbodies]

Agreed. And with the panel you posted, Jean clobbering him was more impressive there because he was actually dangerous back then. It's not impressive now.

Like I said, just a modern writer rehashing something that was done better 20 years ago & has lost all meaning today. Tends to happen a lot with Deadpool, Wolverine, and Creed.

I know I'm not crazy, hell he had the Invisble Woman threaten to lobotomized Dr. Doom. Personally I like a little more fire from Jean.

[Tycon]

For perspective, again not about her powers or feats, just her presentation Jean has literally just returned from death she should be more equipped to deal with the dangers of a mission. And quieting a helpless Sabes does not refute that...and this was decades ago.

She just returned to death? In-universe, Phoenix Resurrection was almost a year ago for her. Again, her putting Sabretooth in his place showed us that this is indeed the Jean we all know and love. And like what was made explicit in the issue, she was busy not only maintaining a connection to Xavier, but also keeping the dead/alive status on all of them in case The Five were needed if anyone came back. Also, we don’t know what happens after the Sentinels break into Jean’s escape pod, all we know is that she ends up dying. We could’ve gotten the most badass, five-page battle sequence and the result would still be the same as she was blindsided right after feeling the deaths of her entire team.

[The Quiet Councilor]

I know I'm not crazy, hell he had the Invisble Woman threaten to lobotomized Dr. Doom. Personally I like a little more fire from Jean.

I love that you use that example when what did Jean to Sabertooth was a step removed from being a lobotomy. Sue spoke. Jean acted. SMH

[Celestialbodies]

She just returned to death? In-universe, Phoenix Resurrection was almost a year ago for her. Again, her putting Sabretooth in his place showed us that this is indeed the Jean we all know and love. And like what was made explicit in the issue, she was busy not only maintaining a connection to Xavier, but also keeping the dead/alive status on all of them in case The Five were needed if anyone came back. Also, we don’t know what happens after the Sentinels break into Jean’s escape pod, all we know is that she ends up dying. We could’ve gotten the most badass, five-page battle sequence and the result would still be the same as she was blindsided right after feeling the deaths of her entire team.

...that was my entire point, she's literally experienced rebirth through fire, fear of dying shouldn't be that high up on her list of things. And if we're being literal it should have been less time in-universe given Hickmans own timeline where a decade worth of events were smashed into like 3 years. The problem for me wasn't what she was doing it was how it came off, and it came off incredibly unimpressive to me. Which when you think about it is crazy given the distance, but again none of that was stressed. Its baffling to me that the Doctor who lost her husband had more drive in her than most of the seasoned X-men there especially Jean.

[Celestialbodies]

I love that you use that example when what did Jean to Sabertooth was a step removed from being a lobotomy. Sue spoke. Jean acted. SMH

What's more impressive casually threatening a foe to their face whose actually taken over the universe multiple times, or mentally attacking someone while their already chained and helplessly, Emma attacking beforehand makes it less so. Especially when I've seen Jean do worse, again my opinion you might think differently.

[The Quiet Councilor]

What's more impressive casually threatening a foe to their face whose actually taken over the universe multiple times, or mentally attacking someone while their already chained and helplessly, Emma attacking beforehand makes it less so. Especially when I've seen Jean do worse, again my opinion you might think differently.

Moving those goalposts like an omega level telekinetic but I’ll bite. Anybody can run their mouth. Jean shut down Sabertooth when Emma could not. A fact brought to your attention when you expressed concern about their being an imbalance in their dynamic in Emma’s favor. So far, the scales are tipped in Jean’s favor. She has the power, the man, and the strength of character to extend an olive branch to someone who hurt her deeply.

[Celestialbodies]

Moving those goalposts like an omega level telekinetic but I’ll bite. Anybody can run their mouth. Jean shut down Sabertooth when Emma could not. A fact brought to your attention when you expressed concern about their being an imbalance in their dynamic in Emma’s favor. So far, the scales are tipped in Jean’s favor. She has the power, the man, and the strength of character to extend an olive branch to someone who hurt her deeply.

Moving goalposts? I didn't bring that up you did, as a point of reference for Jean's supposed strength under Hickman.

I'm now confused though if you consider Sabertooth a bigger threat than Dr. Doom? I brought up Doom to should that Hickman can present strength without a show of strength and it be much more effective. And that's not even taking into account the number of peers that make up the counsel any one of them could deal with Sabes. But also not my point, my point has consistently been ALL of what I've seen from Hickman not simply a single panel which was done better decades ago and under much more pressing circumstances! I don't care about feats, I care about Jean being presented as capable all within herself.


But also because Jean/Emma's dynamic is such as fascinating one which could breed such great stories and conversations when I think of their relationship this is what I think of:



Two titans verbally sparring, and maybe if we're lucky some kickass applications of telepathy!

[spirit2011]

What's more impressive casually threatening a foe to their face whose actually taken over the universe multiple times, or mentally attacking someone while their already chained and helplessly, Emma attacking beforehand makes it less so. Especially when I've seen Jean do worse, again my opinion you might think differently.

That wasn't a big feat at all. Sabretooth these days is so jobbed, it wasn't a displey of power just that Jean was already done with him

IDK why Jean is so mean with sabretooth that never done anything bad to her, but i sso passive with Emma