X-MEN GIANT SIZE JEAN GREY & EMMA FROST by Jonathan Hickman & Russell Dauterman

[Celestialbodies]

Is she an underhanded politician willing to use her powers unethically to achieve the desired ends in the face of unreasoning, hostility? Does she have the business contacts and personal control over the Hellfire Club/Trade company? Using Emma Frost takes nothing away from Jean especially if she fits the role/need better.



Hickman =/= Guggenheim. "Wait and see" can be a problem, but again doesn't mean it will be. Also no one is saying wait forever but instead suggesting give it a few issues of the actual comics they star in. The X-Men by and large were only guest stars in HoX/PoX.



As opposed to the small group of Jean fans who have consistently derailed damn near every thread, every conversation to whine about Jean or bitch about Emma?



Knowing nothing about the characters before HoX... Jean appears on 6 of the 12 covers for the two series and again on X-Men #1... One of the 1st three characters who appear in book 1... The mutant who's PoV is used to introduce people to Krakoa, used to convey the emotion of the scene (hope and happiness)... Chosen for the what was billed as one of the most important missions ever... Maintained a psychic connection over millions of miles and has to watch all of her friends and family on the mission with her die before dying herself... You see the entire nation celebrate her and the teams triumphant resurrection... Chosen to sit on the governing body... She is the one who pushes hardest that the highest crime is killing someone who can't resurrect (ordinary humans) while directly challenging Apocalypse... Psychically bitch slapping Sabertooth into a drooling idiot when he was threatening the council... Front and center sharing beers with Cyclops, Wolverine and Emma Frost... Yeah, I can see how someone new to the IP might not understand her importance with that kind of showing.

Also of the ones you mentioned... Xavier, Magneto, Apocalypse, Destiny, Emma, Mystique, Nightcrawler, Nimrod, Polaris, Moira, Monet, and the Stepford Cuckoos the Bolded all had noticeably less impact than Jean. Destiny who had one good scene (admittedly damn good). Which leaves us with Xavier, Magneto, Emma and Moira. The three actual stars and Emma who had fewer appearances but her scenes were pretty damn good. So what? Once again Emma getting something nice does not take anything from Jean.



I'm first a Magneto Fan, second a Cyclops fan, then third place cycles between Jean, Rogue and Magik. I fully acknowledge that and will not apologize for it either. Of course there are biases that come into play, however that doesn't render my opinion any less valid as you seem to want to imply. Twice in this post you sound that its specific groups of fans have less valid opinions because of who they like. Your critique of the fandom is largely off base because you overlook the root cause of these vocal debates, specifically a small number of Jean fans starting crap with Emma fans because of deep seated hostility and things like jealousy over Emma being chosen to interact with the politicians. In fact, its not even every Jean fan complaining, just a very vocal few versus almost everyone else.
Constantly.
In every thread.
With that observation, maybe its not the other fandoms that are the issue



Ok? And? We still come back to the fact that your critiquing Hickman's use of the character when so far he's only had her in a guest starring role.

You did read the original poster I was responding to? They specifically referenced if she even has experiences as a diplomat or politician figure, so I referenced the very recent series in which she was doing both. Unfortunately for you, you assumed that was an attack on Emma, I personally don't find them mutually exclusive...


Waiting and see is only a problem imo, after you've had the opportunities to assess an author's work...we have across several issues that part isn't up for debate. That aside once again I must reiterate, screen time did not matter for several characters as Hickman was able to capture their voices, that isn't something new. Many writers have been capable of doing a great job with a character even if they have written them in "guest spots". It's also interesting how casual you are about the X-men being guest stars in the two titles specifically designed to change their status quo.


As opposed to the Storm, Cyclops, Emma, Wolverine etc. fans who've been consistently derailing threads for years, the selective memory around this place, hell there were posters here upset about X-men Red and it was the ONLY title Jean appeared in after 14 years!


Apocalypse who had running themes all throughout HOX/POX and all throughout the backgrounds of several DOX titles had less to do than Jean? Nimrod who appeared as one of the primary antagonist for both series has less to do than Jean...but still it wasn't about what they were doing. For me let me state once again, it was the substance of their contribution, as I've continually listed!


I commented on the opinions of others such as yours, and several other posters in this thread because your posts imply because you enjoyed every aspect of HOX/POX that everyone else must do so to. I also continually stated the parts I liked, then prerequisite that by saying however his Jean is not my favorite I go on to explain why then that's met with "Jean fans are mad because she wasn't the star", "Jean fans derail threads", "Jean fans are obsessed", etc. I'm basing my opinion on the years of reading Hickman and as of Nov. 22, 2019, I still don't think he has a handle on her character. However I do feel he does a great job with characters like Xavier, Mags, Emma, Apocalypse, etc. My critique was based off the hypocrisy of this forum wherein, for the last 10 years that I've been apart of it, fans of i{nsert character here} literally derail thread after thread and in many cases based off far less than being written OOC. That and more specifically, posters that outright stated the ONLY reasons Jean fans don't like Hickman's take is due to her NOT being the center of attention, or in the spotlight, or his fave. When in reality we are just voicing concerns based on what been presented.



Finally, I brought up X-force because some posters were using it as a defense for ANY critiques on Hickman. I'm critiquing him now because once again, he is the driving force behind the shift in the entire franchise but more specifically he's the actual writer of this issue!!

I dont care for the premise of this book at ALL so your point made here definitely doesnt apply to me.

No but voicing concerns about your favorite does, and that's my point if Storm were currently appearing in a title where the writers based on several opportunities to use her wrote her OOC. Then I imagine you and several others would have an issue, maybe not with the entire series but with how she specifically used. The frustrating thing is I don't have to imagine, I've seen fans of characters freak out over less which was my point.

[franckd]

I love this cover better than the first one. It truly emphasizes Jean, Storm, and Emma as the goddesses of X!

It's a more "agressive" or reactive cover (I don't have the exact word in english).

[Veitha]

You did read the original poster I was responding to? They specifically referenced if she even has experiences as a diplomat or politician figure, so I referenced the very recent series in which she was doing both. Unfortunately for you, you assumed that was an attack on Emma, I personally don't find them mutually exclusive...

Kind of unrelated to what you were trying to say, but Searebro was kind of a flop. She only took in refugees, she had no real plan other than funding a nation based on the power of love. And one UN speech doesn't compensate years of mingling with politicians and powerful people. The role really did fit Emma.

Same for Storm, Scott, Apocalypse and the others. They al covered roles that fit their personalities. I think Hickman wanted Jean to be the "hearth" of the team but I don't think it really worked. Seeing the Orchis death through her eyes was kind of powerful but he ended up making her look weak in some fans eyes, which I understand. I think that her council scene and her short X-Force appearance were very good though.

[darewithpeace]

New cover

i know is a jean emma comic but storm is in the cover and she needs a logo in there

[myownlittleusername]

Release date is apparently February 26th. Pretty late.

Marauders 8 is shipping the 19th, so this should take place after that if inter-comic continuity still holds by then. Might get tricky with scheduling as time goes on.

[jwatson]

looking forward to seeing what hickman thinks the inside of ororor's mind looks/is like.

[Havok83]

Release date is apparently February 26th. Pretty late.

Marauders 8 is shipping the 19th, so this should take place after that if inter-comic continuity still holds by then. Might get tricky with scheduling as time goes on.

Good point. Considering that Storm and Emma will already be interacting in Maraurders, I wonder how Jean will get involved in this story. You think Emma contacts Jean for hep?

[anyajenkins]

Kind of unrelated to what you were trying to say, but Searebro was kind of a flop. She only took in refugees, she had no real plan other than funding a nation based on the power of love.

It wasn’t a ‘flop’, though sure her funding was more limited because she didn’t have a magically island that could create unlimited, land, food, water, medicine, houses, infrastructure and technology out of nothing.

[Veitha]

It wasn’t a ‘flop’, though sure her funding was more limited because she didn’t have a magically island that could create unlimited, land, food, water, medicine, houses, infrastructure and technology out of nothing.

* looks at Genosha, Utopia and New Tian *

[spirit2011]

It wasn’t a ‘flop’, though sure her funding was more limited because she didn’t have a magically island that could create unlimited, land, food, water, medicine, houses, infrastructure and technology out of nothing.

The book was canceled before she could do something about it too.

[Celestialbodies]

Kind of unrelated to what you were trying to say, but Searebro was kind of a flop. She only took in refugees, she had no real plan other than funding a nation based on the power of love. And one UN speech doesn't compensate years of mingling with politicians and powerful people. The role really did fit Emma.

Same for Storm, Scott, Apocalypse and the others. They al covered roles that fit their personalities. I think Hickman wanted Jean to be the "hearth" of the team but I don't think it really worked. Seeing the Orchis death through her eyes was kind of powerful but he ended up making her look weak in some fans eyes, which I understand. I think that her council scene and her short X-Force appearance were very good though.

So, was Utopia, so was the move the San Francisco, so was the move to Central Park, so was Westchester, so was the move to Limbo but the differences imo were those had years of time to fully develop those concepts. Jean had 12 issues in XM:R of which also had to set up the series direction, the characters involved, the antagonist etc. I didn't say it was perfect I was simply responding to the school of thought, Jean wasn't a politician or diplomat.

But more specifically what does this have to do with Emma, these things aren't mutually exclusive, nor was XM;R the only time Jean functioned in this role she's been the figure head of the Xavier institute before. The only difference with Jean is directly following NXM she was taken off the board.


Personally, I could see Hickman thinking that's how he was writing Jean, if X-men 1&2 are any indication of how he writes interpersonal moments between characters.

[RachelGrey]

i know is a jean emma comic but storm is in the cover and she needs a logo in there

You aren't alone feeling this, a lot of Storm fans feel the book should be titled with all three women since Storm is also going to be a big part of the story and will probably help them defeat the villain in the last half of the book. I was thinking perhaps if the Giant Size 5 or 6 issue series is linked to each other, perhaps Giant Size #2 features Storm as the front and centre character and Jean and Emma as the supporting characters in #2! I actually wouldn't mind if the Giants Size series actually focuses on Storm, Jean, and Emma. I think it would be nice to have a mini series focused on the female characters of X, they are some of the best characters in comics and this is like a dream book for me to have all three of them together in the same book for a run!

[powerpax]

Yeah, I enjoyed certain aspects of Red but oof, Jean’s “plan” was very Marianne Williamson. And the hokey speeches about “weaponizing the truth”. Jean pls

[RachelGrey]

Yeah, I enjoyed certain aspects of Red but oof, Jean’s “plan” was very Marianne Williamson. And the hokey speeches about “weaponizing the truth”. Jean pls

I feel like it was the writer doing their cliche vision of a social justice warrior. Don't get me wrong I did like Red, but I felt like the writer was trying so hard to make political points that they didn't realize how cliche some of it was and it shows in the writing a lot. Honestly the Cassandra Nova arch went on way too long, that should have been a 4 or 5 issue arch, and then move on to the next story arch. Spreading it out over the entire run is what made the story feel like it was moving too slow!

[Wiccan]

Yeah, I enjoyed certain aspects of Red but oof, Jean’s “plan” was very Marianne Williamson. And the hokey speeches about “weaponizing the truth”. Jean pls

I loved woke Jean's speeches and I'm not even being ironic.