What of Xavier's Dream?

[Keno]

Cyclops was right.


Too many people here don't understand what segregation means.

Not gonna lie but Pre-Morrison Cyclops didn't use to think the same and he even vouched on that.\

[Steel Inquisitor]

I was speaking more to the fact that everything she tried either on her own or with Charles and/or Erik and Apocalypse throughout her lives...pretty much failed.

Of course it did, Xavier succeeding would kill the X-men comics. And this will fail, as well.

It's that knowledge of failure that forces Xavier (with Moira's obvious push/idea) to accept the fact that the dream has to be re-interpreted and revised going forward.

His dream isn't being revised, its being abandoned. Idealism denied to embrace isolationism, defeatism, segregation and mutant supremacy.

[Ferro]

Of course it did, Xavier succeeding would kill the X-men comics. And this will fail, as well.



His dream isn't being revised, its being abandoned. Idealism denied to embrace isolationism, defeatism, segregation and mutant supremacy.

x-men comics had over decade of stories with xavier's dream pratically abandoned after mday and the character itself being kicked out off the team for his own dirt, the x-men don't need the dream to be sucessfull. in fact utopian stories outshined the "return to the dream" title that was wolverine and the x-men.

[Electricmastro]

His dream isn't being revised, its being abandoned.

[Zelena]

Actions speak louder than words.

[Veitha]

Actions speak louder than words.

I agree. Giving humans life changing drugs that will help countless people and letting humans work on Krakoan energy tech really proves how much he still loves humanity.

[Steel Inquisitor]

x-men comics had over decade of stories with xavier's dream pratically abandoned after mday and the character itself being kicked out off the team for his own dirt, the x-men don't need the dream to be sucessfull. in fact utopian stories outshined the "return to the dream" title that was wolverine and the x-men.

The X-men didn't abandon Xaver's dream after M-Day, it was far more complicated then what you're saying. They eventually split up, but that was under Bendis and they didn't all unquestionably fall in line behind revolutionary! Cyclops. Xavier's dream is more than just the man, the man is replaceable and it's not the first time they've kept his vision without him around. The X-men are defined by Xavier's dream, that's shaped their ideology from the beginning, its why they constantly get into fights with mutant supremacists. This isn't about how you feel about the stories, you said yourself the X-men haven't given up on that in that time period. And they didn't. Wolverine and the X-men aren't the only core X-title who did that. Utopian stories have been a tradition for the X-men since Claremont's original run, having that theme didn't make them lose that dream.

[Devaishwarya]

x-men comics had over decade of stories with xavier's dream pratically abandoned after mday and the character itself being kicked out off the team for his own dirt, the x-men don't need the dream to be sucessfull. in fact utopian stories outshined the "return to the dream" title that was wolverine and the x-men.

Exactatiously.

It's very clear to me that some people are reading an entirely different set of X-Men so I'm not even trying to be bothered

[Micabe]

Cyclops was right.


Too many people here don't understand what segregation means.

You mean "Segregation" the way Jim Crow Law(s) defined it?

[Kisinith]

Not gonna lie but Pre-Morrison Cyclops didn't use to think the same and he even vouched on that.\

This was when Magneto was still primarily a villain and "Magneto's Way" was still violently challenging for mutant supremacy, believing that peaceful coexistence wasn't possible. The X-Men fight to make that dream a reality, and verifiably still are. The problem with most of the arguments claiming, incorrectly, that the X-Men have abandoned the dream is that they wrongly believe that they only way to fight for the dream is to live as if it were already reality. The reason its called a dream in the first place is that it isn't real.

The X-Men in Krakoa are, explicitly, working for a world of peaceful coexistence. This is made clear over and over again, through the laws of krakoa, Xaviers speech in HoX, the meeting in Davos. They are not conquering or at war with humanity. Mutants are not being required to leave and go to Krakoa, they are invited and being made safe. Thats huge, people throughout history have moved around the world pursuing safety.

The X-Men are going about attaining the Dream in a different way, instead of street level community activism and making impassioned speeches about peace love and brotherhood, they took a step back to establish a safe space for their people to not get murdered and then took aim at the greatest threat facing the mutant people. World Governments. As log as the various nations and states sanction or turn a blind eye to murderbots and genocide, coexistence was impossible.

Peaceful coexistence on the Macro Scale is still peaceful coexistence. The fact that they are attaining it through commerce, medical inducements and politics does not equal not fighting for the dream.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Exactatiously.

It's very clear to me that some people are reading an entirely different set of X-Men so I'm not even trying to be bothered

Except this isn't a large disagreement, Ferro's final sentence shows that the X-men in that time period never gave up the dream. I think you're talking about how people interpreting comics and I agree people who think Magneto's right are going to view the same stories differently the those who don't.

[Keno]

This was when Magneto was still primarily a villain and "Magneto's Way" was still violently challenging for mutant supremacy, believing that peaceful coexistence wasn't possible. The X-Men fight to make that dream a reality, and verifiably still are. The problem with most of the arguments claiming, incorrectly, that the X-Men have abandoned the dream is that they wrongly believe that they only way to fight for the dream is to live as if it were already reality. The reason its called a dream in the first place is that it isn't real.

The X-Men in Krakoa are, explicitly, working for a world of peaceful coexistence. This is made clear over and over again, through the laws of krakoa, Xaviers speech in HoX, the meeting in Davos. They are not conquering or at war with humanity. Mutants are not being required to leave and go to Krakoa, they are invited and being made safe. Thats huge, people throughout history have moved around the world pursuing safety.

The X-Men are going about attaining the Dream in a different way, instead of street-level community activism and making impassioned speeches about peace love and brotherhood, they took a step back to establish a safe space for their people to not get murdered and then took aim at the greatest threat facing the mutant people. World Governments. As long as the various nations and states sanction or turn a blind eye to murderbots and genocide, coexistence was impossible.

Peaceful coexistence on the Macro Scale is still peaceful coexistence. The fact that they are attaining it through commerce, medical inducements and politics does not equal not fighting for the dream.

I am not against X-Men living in Krakoa but the idea itself has more than often gave me a deja vu of how Inhumans live in segregation(Attilan) but how they still attain commerce and politics. They are experimented superhuman beings who can never be accepted among humans and they have different laws, government, technology, and cultural traits. Even Hickman added several things to that mythos during FF. I was rereading his FF and how they were making their own city of ascension.

[Kisinith]

I am not against X-Men living in Krakoa but the idea itself has more than often gave me a deja vu of how Inhumans live in segregation(Attilan) but how they still attain commerce and politics. They are experimented superhuman beings who can never be accepted among humans and they have different laws, government, technology, and cultural traits. Even Hickman added several things to that mythos during FF. I was rereading his FF and how they were making their own city of ascension.

Thats fair, I'm not saying that Krakoa is doing everything right and above criticism. There are flaws, there are failures and cracks. It's explicitly built on the premise of a compromise between Xaviers and Magneto's philosophies. There are people who were invited in who do not deserve the benefit of the doubt and should make people wary. But... that does not equate to abandoning what they have stood for for years. A change in tactics does not mean they abandoned the fight.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Thats fair, I'm not saying that Krakoa is doing everything right and above criticism. There are flaws, there are failures and cracks. It's explicitly built on the premise of a compromise between Xaviers and Magneto's philosophies. There are people who were invited in who do not deserve the benefit of the doubt and should make people wary. But... that does not equate to abandoning what they have stood for for years. A change in tactics does not mean they abandoned the fight.

In theory, this is correct - in practice how Krakoa is doing this is incorrect.

You know what the compromise is? It's very similar to the Hellfire Club's goal to acquire power, only rather than mutants being a tool for them to exploit it's incorporated into the goal.

here's a quote from New Mutants Vol.1, #16:

Emma: "The goal of the Hellfire Club's Inner Circle is power -- Sebastian Shaw and I wish to rule the world. Mutants are a means to an end."
Kitty: "Whether we like it or not."
Emma: "There are too many super-beings -- mutants and otherwise -- People have begun to realize their value. The person, group, corporation -- country -- that possesses them . . . has an incalculable advantage over those that don't. We used to be hated, now we're desired -- and for the same reason, because we are different from humanity. We have abilities homo sapiens does not. They still fear us -- that will never change -- but now they wish to use us. And they'll do whatever they must to persuade us to obey . . . You must choose whether you wish to be ruler -- or slave."
Kitty: "All I want is to be left alone, to live my life in peace, is that too much to ask?!!"
Emma: "You lost that option . . . the moment you were born. If you wish true freedom, Katherine, end your life. The grave is a mutant's only lasting sanctuary. If you will not join the Hellfire Club willingly, you will be forced. The choice, as always, is yours."

This is not simply about people being invited, this is about giving political control to the worst of the worst and letting known mass murderers go off the leash as if they are tools to be discarded when they "surprisingly" go rogue (Sabretooth). Who saw Sabretooth doing that, clearly not Xavier or the various X-men on the Quiet Council - it's not like they've worked with him before.

Segregation as a concept is wrong, is the thing. They learnt nothing about the bad consequences from the Inhumans doing this.

Compromise is good, it's how they've compromised which has been controversial. And that's not the sole reason why Krkaoa is created, Moria X was a huge component in that and they're preparing for war to stop the coming future not settling down for peace. It's a respite for now but that's not going to last forever and they've made compromises which will hurt their international reputation far more if that gets out - like the Crucible, see how this goes being featured in evening news in Marvel, and the cartels. Xavier has plausible deniability but how long will that last? If Emma turns on Xavier for getting Shaw this becomes a domino against Krkaoa and she's shown doubts about the government like wanting democracy. That's a stance which will cost him dearly if Xavier won't give up his power and this Xavier loves the power he has.

What they're doing now is the exact opposite of the "dream" and in fact might make it harder in the future for the X-men to go about doing that once the dominoes fall, unless there's a great excuse like they're plant clones or Xavier's created another power mad version of himself. Again.

Segregation, compromising so thoroughly that the lines are blurred between the super-heroes and super-villains, mutant supremacy being encouraged, letting his students get abused by super-villains, creating a mutant dictatorship have nothing to do with Xavier's dream, it's a subversion. This is another dream and it's not Xavier's as we know it.

[lowfyr]

Xavier never represented MLK and the way his words get constantly whitewashed and sugarcoated to demonize not only the mutants’ actions but, in real life, black rights activists. Anyway Xavier sounds more like MLK every time he appears in this new Krakoa era

Thanks for posting this.