What of Xavier's Dream?

[People Of The Earth]

Lemme see if I have this straight...

The only way that mutants would be doing a "Proper..." job of protecting Earth would be either...

- Saving Humanity From Dumb Fights It Has Started...

or

- Saving Humanity From Random 'Worldbreaker"-Level Threats...

Seriously?

Seriously.

THEY the X-Men caused that Brood invasion to begin with so THEY don't deserve to be celebrated for stopping it, because putting out the fire THEY started was the least they could do.

- Saving Humanity From Dumb Fights the X-Men Have Started - is not, in fact, a proper way for the X-Men to protect the World.

[Veitha]

They're helping the world with the drugs. If they had completely abandoned the dream, they'd just stay on Krakoa, ammass mutants and resources and then kill everyone. Instead they've been cordial to humans and gave them life changing drugs.

[numberthirty]

Seriously.

THEY the X-Men caused that Brood invasion to begin with so THEY don't deserve to be celebrated for stopping it, because putting out the fire THEY started was the least they could do.

- Saving Humanity From Dumb Fights the X-Men Have Started - is not, in fact, a proper way for the X-Men to protect the World.

You just described the way that the X-Men have spent ninety percent of their entire history.

Either...

- They Were Very Rarely Doing A "Proper..." Job Of Protecting The World To Start With...

or

- There Are Some Hitches In What You Are Saying Actually Constitutes "Proper..."

[Steel Inquisitor]

I don't understand the discourse in this thread lol

The dream still lives, it's just a different approach to it. The dream is co-existence and for mutants to be recognised as people.

But Krakoa is the opposite of co-existence, it's giving up on humanity. He's championing running away to live on a magic island, as well as making deals with people he near would have in the past. Magneto is understandable, they have done this sort of thing before and he has an on again off again love/hatred with Xavier/the X-men, but he's completely reversed his position on mutants beyond rehabilitation and welcomed them with open arms and no physical restraints. Including when they openly betray and abuse his own X-men. An Xavier who shrugs off Rogue being locked into a magic coffin for a plan by Apocalypse is not the same Xavier we know. The old Xavier would go to war over that to any super-villain who dared to hurt his students.

If I had dreams of becoming a Film Director and I was originally going to do so by making little indie films in my back garden and work my way up, only then to realise that it may be easier/more beneficial to study it academically instead, working my way up through the industry that way - Surely I would still be following my dream, just changing my method of achieving it?

Xavier being a film director isn't really a good metaphor for this. If he was a film director he'd be working with the mob and trying to buy off the authorities with drugs to make them look the other way. It's debatable what he's doing is about the dream, post-Moira X he's got other worries to focus own - like stopping future threats to save mutant kind from the Dominion/Phalanx/evolved humanity.

The moral aspect can (and should) be debated as much as we like, but it doesn't change Xavier's dream imo.

Does he really believe in the dream when he allows rants by high ranking Krakoan head of state calling mutants gods and that they're going to own humanity? Their methods may be tempered somewhat but the goals echo something more like what mutant supremacists wants than his original dream. He's given up on idealism and sunk into cynicism/defeatism.

P.S. Can we all remember that Xavier has, for quite a number of years now, been a manipulator and not exactly the best of influences. I think it's kind of natural for him to be this morally dubious since his death in AvX and onwards. Just my opinion of course.

Right, except now all he does these days is being shady and he's celebrated for it. If anything, he wasn't being shady enough for many X-fans to like him. If he just started making deals with cartels sooner they'd be easier on him. This isn't aimed at you, just how he's viewed compared to what he was like back then by a portion of the fandom.

[Veitha]

Thank God he's given up on pure idealism, and he's also late on that. How many mutants had to die before he realized that a pure idealistic approach doesn't work?

[People Of The Earth]

they still are protecting humans. They're sharing the resources necessary to cure fatal/previously incurable illnesses on a mass scale

you could argue that they're using this as leverage, and you'd be right, but this is only one aspect of the decision. Xavier himself has expressed that his ultimate goal is still coexistence , he's just seen from his and Moira's experience that they need to find a new way to coexist. This is that new way, for now.

its more nuanced than the archetypal Good vs. Evil but the stories have kind of eschewed this for ages anyways

Is it coexistence when the mutant population self-isolate in the middle of the Pacific? At what scale do we consider it still is coexistence actually?

I see people argue the Kraked are coexisting with the rest of Humanity by the virtue of living on the same planet, but that's not the coexistence Xavier Always talked about.
He Always meant for mutants and sapiens to live in the same society, as equals.
To share the same rights, to burden the same responsibilities, to reach for the same future.
Coexistence was Always meant to be experienced on a local scale for Xavier.

The idea that coexistence is achieved with mutants on one side of the planet and sapiens on the other is a joke.
I won't pretend I'm coexisting with people living in Buenos Aires or Canberra when I'm living in Paris, that would be just as bad a joke…

The way things are unfolding with mutants isolating themselves on Krakoa, Xavier is pursuing a new dream altogether.
Maybe he'll revert to the old one someday in the future, it's obviously his hope, but right now it's disingenuous to say Xavier's dream is being pursued on Krakoa, that's Simply not the case.

[Zelena]

The dream is dead, long live the dream.

What ever lies at the end of this current retcon induced cloth of a story placed on the x-men franchise's table, the foundation of said franchise is the idea of a group of super heros, connected by a shared origin of their powers, trying to make the world a better place for their kind and rest of humanity.

The "illusion of change" that is at the center of these long running permanently repeating super hero comics/universes, which won't allow anything but the real world to permanently alter the status quo of the "normal", means that said foundation is all that will endure from what ever experimental or unusual storypath a writer or team of writers will attempt to go.

Since the length of this overarching Dawn of X story is unknown to the readers, it's perhaps far too early to say how much it tries to divert from it's foundation or will actualy ultimately play into it.
Without a clear picture of the endgame this story is trying to achieve, the moral of it could go anywhere.

Maybe it will go for a full rejection of the dream, a debatable different interpretation of it or straight up reinforce it at the end. But it's likely years away to be revealed for good

Once the dust has settled however and a new writer or team will build something new again under the "illusion of change", it will once again be measured by what is the foundation of the X-men.
The will of helping their kind of humanity and the rest to co-exist, what ever enemies within or without they have to fight for it. (With big splash pages of action, personal drama and the occasional twists and turns in storylines).

There usually never was a doubt about X-men's morals no matter what they were going through...… It was the fixing point of the saga.

The adventures, the problems, the tragedies were there for that: to demonstrate their true spirit, not to retire in style.

[Veitha]

There usually never was a doubt about X-men's morals no matter what they were going through...… It was the fixing point of the saga.
.

The X-Men had kill squads before Krakoa.

[Veitha]

Is it coexistence when the mutant population self-isolate in the middle of the Pacific? At what scale do we consider it still is coexistence actually?

I see people argue the Kraked are coexisting with the rest of Humanity by the virtue of living on the same planet, but that's not the coexistence Xavier Always talked about.
He Always meant for mutants and sapiens to live in the same society, as equals.
To share the same rights, to burden the same responsibilities, to reach for the same future.
Coexistence was Always meant to be experienced on a local scale for Xavier.

The idea that coexistence is achieved with mutants on one side of the planet and sapiens on the other is a joke.
I won't pretend I'm coexisting with people living in Buenos Aires or Canberra when I'm living in Paris, that would be just as bad a joke…

The way things are unfolding with mutants isolating themselves on Krakoa, Xavier is pursuing a new dream altogether.
Maybe he'll revert to the old one someday in the future, it's obviously his hope, but right now it's disingenuous to say Xavier's dream is being pursued on Krakoa, that's Simply not the case.

Mutants have carved themselves a place where they're not persecuted and molested by humans daily, that's not isolation is survival and wanting to seek a better life. If your idea of coexistence is "let's wait for Xavier to be friends with enough people for humans to stop killing us" then welp I don't know what to tell you if not that's a cold and unrealistic take if you take continuity into account.

And mutants still spend time on land and they can own property on land.

The dream has changed because people and ideals change. It doesn't mean he wants mutant supremacy or dead humanity.

[People Of The Earth]

They're helping the world with the drugs. If they had completely abandoned the dream, they'd just stay on Krakoa, ammass mutants and resources and then kill everyone. Instead they've been cordial to humans and gave them life changing drugs.

Magneto himself said to the sapiens him and his people were playing the long game with them.
They're convinced they'll outlast and outnumber the sapiens with time, so they are trying to get enough time ahead of them to get the ball rolling.
It's that simple.

[People Of The Earth]

You just described the way that the X-Men have spent ninety percent of their entire history.

Either...

- They Were Very Rarely Doing A "Proper..." Job Of Protecting The World To Start With...

or

- There Are Some Hitches In What You Are Saying Actually Constitutes "Proper..."

Well, yeah, obviously they were rarely doing a proper job of protecting the world given some of their most notorious member regularly threatened it or jeopardized it.
Magneto.
Xavier.
Jean Grey.
Iceman.
Cyclops.
Beast.
Angel.
Emma Frost.
Do I keep going with this list?

You can argue they aren't the only organization of superhumans who endangered the world with their action if you want, that's not a point I would be disputing.
I'm just pointing out, again, that there's Nothing to celebrate when one's cleans up the mess one's created, that's all.

[Glio]

If they did not want to coexist with humans they could, easily, terraform all Mars with Krakoa and leave humans to their fate without their medicines.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Thank God he's given up on pure idealism, and he's also late on that. How many mutants had to die before he realized that a pure idealistic approach doesn't work?

False choice. In-universe his rivals have done everything possible to make sure peace between the species is impossible, every time the X-men saved the world Apocalypse tried to destroy the human race and the X-men are primarily a super-hero team not activists or politicians. Out of universe, no approach works because it's a comic book.

It's not mutant dying was such a priority to his rivals, they actively killed mutants indirectly with their schemes or whoever stood between and their goal. Mutants dying aren't a concern for groups like the Hellfire Club or Apocalypse cults and the Brotherhood/Acolytes will "sacrifice" their lives for a higher purpose like any other terrorist group.

[Veitha]

False choice. In-universe his rivals have done everything possible to make sure peace between the species is impossible, every time the X-men saved the world Apocalypse tried to destroy the human race and the X-men are primarily a super-hero team not activists or politicians. Out of universe, no approach works because it's a comic book.

It's not mutant dying was such a priority to his rivals, they actively killed mutants indirectly with their schemes or whoever stood between and their goal. Mutants dying aren't a concern for groups like the Hellfire Club or Apocalypse cults and the Brotherhood/Acolytes will "sacrifice" their lives for a higher purpose like any other terrorist group.

And so what? Humans were right in killing countless mutants because Apocalypse and a few others were bad? And Xavier shouldn't care about dead mutants or have a change of mind in seeing his students die?

Keep in mind that Purifiers, Church of Humanity, General Callahan and such just had plain hate for mutants and probably didn't give two fs or knew about Apocalypse.

This doesn't make sense and it sounds a lot like a mutant crimes negationist take.

If they did not want to coexist with humans they could, easily, terraform all Mars with Krakoa and leave humans to their fate without their medicines.

^ this.

[People Of The Earth]

Mutants have carved themselves a place where they're not persecuted and molested by humans daily, that's not isolation is survival and wanting to seek a better life.

That factually is isolation, regardless of the motives behind it. Motives that I'm not discussing btw.

If your idea of coexistence is "let's wait for Xavier to be friends with enough people for humans to stop killing us"

Well it's not, but at the very least, it's not separating themselves from everyone else on a Pacific island.

then welp I don't know what to tell you if not that's a cold and unrealistic take if you take continuity into account.

I do take continuity into account, that's the Reason why what they are pursuing right now has Nothing to do with Xavier's dream. It's Something else entirely.

And mutants still spend time on land and they can own property on land.

Please.
There's only one place where Xavier's old dream is still somewhat being upheld by mutants and that's that golf resort at Rio Verde, with mutants *actually* coexisting with sapiens there.

The dream has changed because people and ideals change.

So we can agree this is not Xavier's dream anymore then, but Something else. Good. Wasn't that difficult to acknowledge, was it?

It doesn't mean he wants mutant supremacy or dead humanity.

No, it doesn't. He's associating himself with people who do want mutant supremacy or dead humanity on the other hand, so it's fair to question the direction they're jointly taking.