What of Xavier's Dream?

[Glio]

Sabretooth was most assuredly used as an example to the others...though I would argue an unintentional one after the fact. The QC did debate what they should ultimately do with him.

TPoS has only gotten away with his machinations and killing Kate because the other X-Men are focused elsewhere on major threats off-island...they're not thinking that someone on the inside is actually moving heaven and earth to undermine theirs and Krakoa's future. An oversight, clearly...as with the attack from the Xeno in X-Force 01.

Xeno's attack was discovered that Xavier allowed it to happen precisely to found X-Force.

He needed to keep the mutants alert.

[Devaishwarya]

Xeno's attack was discovered that Xavier allowed it to happen precisely to found X-Force.

He needed to keep the mutants alert.

True.
I had forgotten that.

[Icefanatic]

Imagine telling someone what they are and aren't a fan of based off your own opinion that you claim is based on "facts". I can't.

If everything was black and white we'd all be Zebras.

That's just it... what was it about those groups that the X-Men opposed? In many cases it was their methods of accomplishing goals, not their actual goals.

You are totally gatekeeping based on your headcanon

So many problems with that.
First using words like "true fan" not in fun tells a lot about the one using it.

Second what "obvious facts"? He is not going full " need to become like their enemies" he just choose a new way to save mutants after seeing that a peaceful coexistence does not work for the moment. 40 years of story after story of mutants getting killed or the goverment building Robots against mutants he has a point in that. He tries a middle ground to start new realtions with humans

Seeing what he said in House of X at the start announcing the new status quo and in Davos if you think that he is advocating killing humans like the former enemies(esp. funny considering certain a law started on Krakoa). the funny thing is the argument that the former enemies changed their ways to the new Xavier middle ground, would be the more "obvious fact".

Hmm. I find analogies are often helpful. Lets take this out of the context of the heroes and villains of the X-Verse.

Imagine two Batman 'fans'.

'I love Batman, but he should kill all the criminals in Gotham. Just start at the top and go all the way to the bottom. If someone even got a parking ticket in Gotham, they would know their number was up!'

'Na. Batman should kill the Joker, then become him. Best Batman ever.'

Now imagine that they are not joking. At all. That that is really how they see Batman and what they want for him.

Would you consider either of them truly fans of Batman?

They might be fans of the trappings of Batman, but not of who the character actually is, of what he stands for and what he is against.

It would be like saying Satanists are actually Christians because Satan comes from the Bible...

[BroHomo]

Would you consider either of them truly fans of Batman?

I can't imagine anyone truly being a Batman fan

Zzzzzz

[numberthirty]

Hmm. I find analogies are often helpful. Lets take this out of the context of the heroes and villains of the X-Verse.

Imagine two Batman 'fans'.

'I love Batman, but he should kill all the criminals in Gotham. Just start at the top and go all the way to the bottom. If someone even got a parking ticket in Gotham, they would know their number was up!'

'Na. Batman should kill the Joker, then become him. Best Batman ever.'

Now imagine that they are not joking. At all. That that is really how they see Batman and what they want for him.

Would you consider either of them truly fans of Batman?

They might be fans of the trappings of Batman, but not of who the character actually is, of what he stands for and what he is against.

It would be like saying Satanists are actually Christians because Satan comes from the Bible...

Politely, the whole thing fell apart when it got to what is in blue.

There is no really legitimate case for that anything like that is happening in the "X" titles.

[houndsofluv]

Change is necessary in long form storytelling idk why this is like a crazy concept lol
The story progressed to a point where the dream needed to change. It didn’t even really change, panels have been posted, the core beliefs the team was built on are the same lol . Co-existence is the goal, the other ways weren’t working so they’re trying this one .

I know the people who aren’t reading the books aren’t trying to dictate who is and isn’t a a fan . Lol

[Icefanatic]

Politely, the whole thing fell apart when it got to what is in blue.

There is no really legitimate case for that anything like that is happening in the "X" titles.

Politely, I used an exaggerated example to inject a little humor into what could become touchy, but also to more clearly highlight my point.

Xavier and the X-Men have embraced Mutant Separatism and Mutant Supremacy, the paths of Magneto and Apocalypse. That is the core of what people are arguing about in this thread. Oh, it's dressed up a little bit, so fans can point to this-or-that-panel like a loved one gazing at a coma patient for signs they are still 'in there'.

Either of those things should be as fundamentally antithetical to who Xavier and the X-Men are, what they stand for and against, as the two examples I gave would be for Batman.

Obviously there is a reason for that happening, and ultimately Hickman will yank the rug out from under everything. And it will be 'Cyclops' here all over again.

'They tried to make Cyclops a villain, say he was a mutant Hitler, but they failed! Cyclops was right, Cyclops was always right! And the harder Marvel tried to make him look like a villain, the more they showed how much a hero he actually was.'

Oh, I can here the lamented cries now. Hickman betrayed us! KRAKOA was RIGHT!!!

[numberthirty]

Politely, I used an exaggerated example to inject a little humor into what could become touchy, but also to more clearly highlight my point.

Xavier and the X-Men have embraced Mutant Separatism and Mutant Supremacy, the paths of Magneto and Apocalypse. That is the core of what people are arguing about in this thread. Oh, it's dressed up a little bit, so fans can point to this-or-that-panel like a loved one gazing at a coma patient for signs they are still 'in there'.

Either of those things should be as fundamentally antithetical to who Xavier and the X-Men are, what they stand for and against, as the two Batman examples I gave.

Obviously there is a reason for that happening, and ultimately Hickman will yank the rug out from under everything. And it will be 'Cyclops' here all over again.

'They tried to make Cyclops a villain, say he was a mutant Hitler, but they failed! Cyclops was right, Cyclops was always right! And the harder Marvel tried to make him look like a villain, the more they showed how much a hero he actually was.'

Oh, I can here the lamented cries now. Hickman betrayed us! KRAKOA was RIGHT!!!

As I see it, here's the glaring issue with the way you laid it out.

What's in blue? It's essentially saying "Of Their Own Free Will, Xavier got the ball rolling on embracing the operating procedures of Magneto/Apocalypse.

What's in green? It's essentially saying "What I Said Earlier? Forget That. There Is Actually An Obvious Reason That Xavier Has Adopted A Hybrid Approach..."

To actually be what is in blue, Xavier would had to have reworked the approach strictly because he had come to the conclusion that it was the correct approach.

Otherwise?

The idea that they have "Embraced..." those approaches is sorta suspect. At best.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Politely, the whole thing fell apart when it got to what is in blue.

There is no really legitimate case for that anything like that is happening in the "X" titles.

Your'e correct, a stronger analogy would be that one side thinks Joker did nothing wrong.

As I see it, here's the glaring issue with the way you laid it out.

What's in blue? It's essentially saying "Of Their Own Free Will, Xavier got the ball rolling on embracing the operating procedures of Magneto/Apocalypse.

What's in green? It's essentially saying "What I Said Earlier? Forget That. There Is Actually An Obvious Reason That Xavier Has Adopted A Hybrid Approach..."

Working with cartels and letting Apocalypse betray Excalibur is a "hybrid approach." Ok.

To actually be what is in blue, Xavier would had to have reworked the approach strictly because he had come to the conclusion that it was the correct approach.

Otherwise?

The idea that they have "Embraced..." those approaches is sorta suspect. At best.

"Reworking" such a passive word for selling out one's principles to super-villains who have tried to murder him and his students, including kids, because it's "for the greater good." Just because Xavier thought it was correct didn't make his decisions infallible. Xavier's made numerous terrible decisions before, this is one of his biggest - assuming it is Charles and not a homicidal fragment.

The clues that Xavier has embraced mutant supremacy is entrenched in Krakoa culture and his decisions. Would you think the old Xavier would shrug off Apocalypse manipulating Rogue to be locked into a magic coffin against her will and sided with Apocalypse?

[numberthirty]

Your'e correct, a stronger analogy would be that one side thinks Joker did nothing wrong.

Not really.

[lowfyr]

Politely, I used an exaggerated example to inject a little humor into what could become touchy, but also to more clearly highlight my point.

Xavier and the X-Men have embraced Mutant Separatism and Mutant Supremacy, the paths of Magneto and Apocalypse. That is the core of what people are arguing about in this thread. Oh, it's dressed up a little bit, so fans can point to this-or-that-panel like a loved one gazing at a coma patient for signs they are still 'in there'.

Either of those things should be as fundamentally antithetical to who Xavier and the X-Men are, what they stand for and against, as the two examples I gave would be for Batman.

Obviously there is a reason for that happening, and ultimately Hickman will yank the rug out from under everything. And it will be 'Cyclops' here all over again.

'They tried to make Cyclops a villain, say he was a mutant Hitler, but they failed! Cyclops was right, Cyclops was always right! And the harder Marvel tried to make him look like a villain, the more they showed how much a hero he actually was.'

Oh, I can here the lamented cries now. Hickman betrayed us! KRAKOA was RIGHT!!!

Sorry but the highlighted stuff is just not true. Same as your Batman example is not a good example. After nearly 50 years of humans killing mutants at least starting with God love, Man kills and goverment putting out Sentinels and the Mutants Registration act instead of stopping the likes of Stryker him finally going full Magneto would have been not surprising. But again he did not go there. He just tries to get mutants in a position of strength to protect them.

Is it perfect? No, it comes with a lot of grey stuff as running a country always does. But that is the interesting stuff for me and after the last years I am anxious for what comes next.

[numberthirty]

...

The clues that Xavier has embraced mutant supremacy is entrenched in Krakoa culture and his decisions. Would you think the old Xavier would shrug off Apocalypse manipulating Rogue to be locked into a magic coffin against her will and sided with Apocalypse?

Again, you are just plain wrong.

What you have to ask yourself is pretty simple...

Wouldn't a leader who has truly embraced mutant supremacy already have used the available might to have humanity living under the thumb of mutant kind by now?

Since we actually all know that has not come to pass, the idea that said approach has been "Embraced..." is probably going to have a lot of trouble gaining any traction.

Never mind actually being accepted as fact.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Again, you are just plain wrong.

What you have to ask yourself is pretty simple...

Wouldn't a leader who has truly embraced mutant supremacy already have used the available might to have humanity living under the thumb of mutant kind by now?

I said Xavier has embraced mutants supremacy, not that he was stupid. Krakoa's culture is filled with mutant supremacy, it's not just grinding humans to dust with force. As well as their laws and the decisions of their leaders. They don't govern like X-men.

Since we actually all know that has not come to pass, the idea that said approach has been "Embraced..." is probably going to have a lot of trouble gaining any traction.

Never mind actually being accepted as fact.

Redefining mutant supremacy as a single act, and erasing the soft forms Krakoa has embraced which are there for everyone to see, which are celebrated, and normalised. Would they old Xavier have ever agreed with Magneto's speech about mutants being gods or been ok with Apocalypse saying he destroyed the Bronze Age? I don't think so.

[The tall man]

Again, you are just plain wrong.

What you have to ask yourself is pretty simple...

Wouldn't a leader who has truly embraced mutant supremacy already have used the available might to have humanity living under the thumb of mutant kind by now?

Since we actually all know that has not come to pass, the idea that said approach has been "Embraced..." is probably going to have a lot of trouble gaining any traction.

Never mind actually being accepted as fact.

Several mutants have attempted to bring humanity under the thumb of mutantkind, many of them now dwell on Krakoa. So a mutant leader like Xavier may want mutant supremacy but there are vast forces of power arrayed against them. And there is no guarantee that they would be successful in a conflict for mutant dominance. In fact Moira's past lives shows they are not. So at this point its not a fact as they don't want dominance its that they are not in a position to achieve it. And according to Magneto they are shifting from overt activities to more subtle ones. But the end result is the same, mutants on top.

[Glio]

"Mutants are superior to humans. Do you know what we should do? Create a medicine that will cure them of any infectious or mental illness."

Krakoa has done more to improve the quality of life for humans than any Xavier action in his entire life (apart from saving the world. Which he continues to do).