What of Xavier's Dream?

[uebersoldat]

This whole thread *chuckle*

Xavier's dream died a long, long time ago when writers got bored with it. Yes, it was fantastic, admirable, good in every sense of the word and I miss it, but then...heroes were heroes back then and not soap operas for adults in a day and age where things are more politicized than ever before save maybe the WWII era.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I'd like to add that people against Rogue here also defend Wanda by using her mental state at the time of Decimation as the main reason why she shouldn't pay any consequences for it. Rogue here had gone through hell and saw Logan die (as far as she knew) but that's completely ignored to post just that page and paint Wanda as a martyr. In the meantime, Wanda was having sex with Wonderman in a luxury room and forging that nonsense plan that was just helping the Twins.

We shouldn't blame Scott for what he did as Dark Phoenix, but we should ignore Wanda's mental condition because that makes her too sympathetic despite being something with occurs in the comics.Only when someone is an X-man should their pain be acknowledged. Wanda's trying to save the world in that arc, but since she did something horrible once she shouldn't be allowed any happiness. I guess the X-men have to throw Rogue out for what she did to Carol now.

[Micabe]

We shouldn't blame Scott for what he did as Dark Phoenix, but we should ignore Wanda's mental condition because that makes her too sympathetic despite being something with occurs in the comics.Only when someone is an X-man should their pain be acknowledged. Wanda's trying to save the world in that arc, but since she did something horrible once she shouldn't be allowed any happiness. I guess the X-men have to throw Rogue out for what she did to Carol now.

Instead of trying to kidnap Franklin -- Charles and Erik should have lured Wanda to Okkara under false pretense only to imprison her with Sabertooth.

[Alan2099]

Instead of trying to kidnap Franklin -- Charles and Erik should have lured Wanda to Okkara under false pretense only to imprison her with Sabertooth.

Yeah, they way they're antagonizing the rest oft he world at the moment is far too slow and subtle. They just need to go full unapologetically evil.

[Steel Inquisitor]

You almost sound like the Thinkpol and this its 1984 *cringe* Theres antiheroes all over pop culture its obvious some fans love them, but what makes you sooo sure that Apoc's fans are suuuuper into his ideology of a fictional group of people having dominion over the other? And even if they are who cares? Most fans of the X-Men are in some capacity members of disenfranchised/marginalized group. Why are you trying to their power fantasy into something wrong? t
Trying to police the feelings of others? that's the real power trip

Apocalypse isn't an anti-hero, he's a villain in every sense of the word. That's why the X-men fight him so often. Committing genocide, torture, mass murder, experimentation. He's done it all and has no regrets. It's not difficult to work out which fans glamorize his ideals. It's unsettling because if they can't tell what Apocalypse does is bad how are they going to do that to ideologies as toxic as his in the real world? Power fantasies are a neutral term but some are not as bad as others, determined by who the character is. Idealising the worst fictional people in super-hero fiction is problematic.

tbh I know next to sh!t about Star Wars but I'm preeeetty certain Vader has a lotta fans, a lot of them were/are kids. Go out on Halloween and you'll see them dressed as Vader, Thanos, Trump....There would be no need to confront said kids about the deaths on Alderaan, or call said kid disgusting for killing half the universe. There's a book series, a whole play about the Witch of the West, theres 2 Movies on Maleficent you trying say fans of theirs condone murder? treason? poisoning? It's fun to root for the Bad Guy multiple franchises are based on that. (Fast4Furious5, Avengers?)

Kids don't get the nuance and they'd be in real bad shape if they're walking around saying the Empire was right. They completely missed what Star wars movies are about. Darth Vader's not the hero there, he's the bad guy. The movies you listed gave those characters nuance and didn't make them evil, they did the opposite. The Fast crew haven't been villains in years, they became spies and super-heroes around Fast 5. It’s telling that Avengers is listed in the “villains” category, can’t have them trying to stop Apocalypse whenever he goes on a killing spree.

Yes because that is the logical thing to do. Why didn't other persecuted people think about that? If they wanna stop being killed and stomped to death....just make your country safer. My bad that was sarcasm. But seriously how would you propose making the united states safer for mutants? They aren't trying to fight a giant snake with wings, The X-Books are about people fighting against their own prejudices and bigotry. There's no gun big enough to kill those, the easiest thing would be just changing everyone's minds. But Prof X won't dont that....cause he is a man of class and good breeding.

How about not letting those very mutants be sitting ducks to other evil mutants who have tried to murder them since day one? Krakoa isn’t changing anyone's mind, they're just getting out of dodge and preparing for the upcoming war. This Xavier's a man who will get into bed with cartels and break bread with super-villains who abuse his own students. It's strange how all you're noticing is the threats humans possess and ignore the dangers within Kkroa itself. It's not a theory that they're dangerous to mutant populations, its a fact. Thats why the X-men have fought them so often to protect vulnerable mutants from those who betray their own kind for their own agendas and amusement.

The way some posters are chomping at the bit to see a nation of persecuted people get their 'comeuppance' is unsettling.

Stop gaslighting. Nobody is against mutants having a nation, they’re just uneasy about how compromised Krakoa is. Apocalypse hasn’t been persecuted since forever, he’s abused his power to oppress mutants whenever he can. Mutants are just expendable pawns to him. Which constantly gets ignored so he, and others like him, can be lionized as heroes when they’re just as bad as the Purifiers. This isn’t about protecting a marginalised group from oppression, it’s about protecting evil mutants so they get to be on top – this is why a monster like Apocalypse is defended more than mutants like Beak. Might Makes Right is a horrible ideology and Apocalypse is a mutant Trump.

[Steel Inquisitor]

And the highest bidder turned out to be..... Themselves!!! Their Safety!! What a twist!! How Evvvvil Buut seriously who have they sold it to? Selene? Yeah she's really cackling now all those mutant kids not being eaten. APoc Yeah a nation stronghold of the most powerful mutants living...loving next to some the weakest? totally his M.O. Sabretooth? Yeah hes got them right where he wants them....I mean Wolverine

The "bidders" were the cartels, Shaw, Magneto, the Brotherhood, Sinister, Apocalypse, Selene, the Acolytes, Sabretooth, Mystique - many of their most evil enemies who have tried to kill and torture them for their entire existence. Stop glamorising Selene, Sabretooth and Apocalypse like they're heroes. Everyone knows who they are and what danger they represent, so why protect them from scrutiny?

I mean and? He doesn't sound any worse than some of the people elected to run some countries. Alabama almost elected a pedophile

This paragraph isn’t a criticism that they’re doing the wrong thing.

Siiiince X-Cutioners Song?

That's not what he did to Rogue. He would go on to possess Cyclops and try to genocide humanity and numerous other crimes.

It's not Peer Pressure...No one is forcing anyone to submit dude, Theres room for #RachelisWolverinesKid Folks, #RachelisCyclopsKid and #RachelisPhoenixForceKid XFans are intense when you step up with an argument it's gotta make sense, you gotta be able to back that sh!t up with some hard canon... I don't think anyone feels that posts are attacking them....at worst I think its an obviously incorrect, but still irresponsible narrative that might give a kid a sour impression of the brand. But Dude read what you posted.Trying to define and lump everyone who isnt so quick to pick up on the dastardly plan as you is an exercise in futility.

Sure it is, “force” isn’t just about the physical it’s about the social. Using socially pressure people into following a certain type of thinking or they’ll be isolated from the group is ancient technique to keep people in line. Don’t act innocent or oblivious to what’s going on. This isn’t about sense or canon, by any stretch. This is about narratives and peer pressure, twisting canon into whatever is liked the most and attacking anyone who won’t follow the script. This isn’t about the brand, it’s about the fandom. I am reading what’s being posted, don’t be disingenuous. It’s not that hard to notice who’s doing what here, they’re not exactly subtle.

Well I mean most of them were tortured by humans, and being a physical threat is a unlikely cause of their "evilness" Human's aren't born bad. Probably can't say the same about folks like Ares the God of War, and Loki, the Prankster God. I mean that is their nature. and they've been fvcking stuff up for human beings since...ever
If having Sabretooth on your squad makes them somehow evil then so be it. It's a special kinda Denial to use Creed of the X-men carelessness While being cool with the likes of Loki, Ares, The Sentry, and The Pretender. Whoosh! And How has Moira failed miserably? None of the reality warpers she raised has had a more negative impact of mutants than...
WHo? Who? wants a race war? what m mutant villians group is seeking that end goal? If you're lumping Selene and Apoc with crass criminal Sabretooth...smh

First blaming the humans. Which isn’t entirely incorrect but ignores the fact not every human does it as well as ignoring that these people have been doing that to other mutants, including the X-men. And this is not what drives mutants like Apocalypse or Selene. Second, conflating them with actual gods – when the gods change. You need to be up to date with Loki, he’s not only a two dimensional prankster – he’s been a hero in his own right. These characters are people, not forces of nature. They just think they are because they’re delusional and oppress anyone they come across. They’re threats to everyone. That’s interesting, rather than thinking about the safety about the mutants on any team he’s on – which he has a history of trying to murder (X-Factor, Carey’s X-men) it’s Sabretooth who’s defended. The man who nearly murdered Psylocke, and Tabitha.

Ignoring the nuance with those Avengers. The Sentry’s a basket case but he wasn’t always a mentally unhinged – he’s got a complex history and he becomes a monster, like with the Apocalypse Twins. Ares is a bad guy, he was on Norman Osborn’s Avengers – the very same Norman Osborn so many people are ok with the X-men and X-villains allying themselves with. Krakoa as it is didn’t happen without her laying the foundations and don’t pretend you don’t know about how dangerous Proteus was. The whole basis of this Krakoa is gearing up to fight the future war against humanity and they’ve made sure to alienate humanity at every step. All the mutant terrorist groups are made to create race wars between humanity and mutants with themselves on top. Yeah, they all go together, Sabretooth wishes he was a dangerous as those two.

Funny your point is how hateful and unfair the mutants are being to humanity. The Xmen are the next Brotherhood of Suicide Bombing mutants, Yet this paragraph and is all about how a person who just cause the death of countless marginalised people is being mistreated by said People. Magneto, Apoc, Selene, etc....irredeemable monsters The Pretender? misunderstood...the real victim.
It's hard to take it seriously.

Some mutants are, it’s why the X-men have to fight them. What do you think the Brotherhood were doing before Krakoa? They weren’t a book club.

[H-E-D]

This whole thread *chuckle*

Xavier's dream died a long, long time ago when writers got bored with it. Yes, it was fantastic, admirable, good in every sense of the word and I miss it, but then...heroes were heroes back then and not soap operas for adults in a day and age where things are more politicized than ever before save maybe the WWII era.

If it died before the X-Men were a soap opera, that's before Claremont.