What of Xavier's Dream?

[davetvs]

It's simple. Comic fans can question and scrutinise how characters act, they did it in the past and they're doing it now. You're right things do change, but just because something happens in a comic you don't have to support it. That includes liking the direction but questioning the characters decisions. Change by itself isn't always good. And the spin isn't even new, Cyclops was doing this with Utopia long before Hickman arrived. Hickman's heavily implied this won't last and it mirrors his past work and themes like with the Avengers. The Illuminati ended eventually and so will this. Krkaoa might even stay, it just might not look how it begun.

I agree with you, discourse is healthy and interesting. There are certainly aspects of Krakoa that deserve questioning even if I am a fan of the direction overall; I'm not talking about that. I meant the people who so clearly believe that the X-Men should always be based out of Xavier's School, which should always be based in Westchester, forever and ever, amen. The ones who act like anything other than that is an affront to the spirit of the franchise.

[JTFSXX]

I don't understand why people who don't ever want anything about the status quo to change even bother with new books. Just read back issues, you're stuck in the past anyway.

For my part, I just appreciate coherent character development. When a character changes their philosophical trajectory, show me that process. One of the problems that I have with this most recent run is that too many characters seems to be buying into things that are totally OUT of character for them without enough hesitation or process. Even when they do question, it seems stunted...think Kurt watching Apocalypse bludgeon a young girl and saying to himself "hmmm...this might be not great." Really? I still think that this may be a plot point and that there may be something else going on making them do so...but if not, this might as well be a reboot.

[cyclops_was_right]

It's simple. Comic fans can question and scrutinise how characters act, they did it in the past and they're doing it now. You're right things do change, but just because something happens in a comic you don't have to support it. That includes liking the direction but questioning the characters decisions. Change by itself isn't always good. And the spin isn't even new, Cyclops was doing this with Utopia long before Hickman arrived. Hickman's heavily implied this won't last and it mirrors his past work and themes like with the Avengers. The Illuminati ended eventually and so will this. Krkaoa might even stay, it just might not look how it begun.

Technically Magneto did it even before Cyke with Genosha. But overall, I absolutely agree with your points. Being a fan of something doesn't mean that you necessarily have to agree with every single direction on the page or that you shouldn't voice your disagreement.

And there are plenty of valid questions that can be asked in regards to the character's motivations in the current run, especially given the author is known for playing the long game.

[Devaishwarya]

Yes. there are plenty valid questions...and not just on the characters' motivations...the Governance, the Society, the Laws, Where is HiX-Man going with this? Is the Dream dead? We've ALL been asking them since HoX-PoX started.

But when some of those questions have been irrefutably answered, on page and in panel...and yet you dig in and continue to ask the same questions and repeat your poorly presented position, without even an ounce of comprehension and an open mind; when you refuse to to actively listen and learn...that's just braying.

I can't speak donkey, so I won't even try.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Yes. there are plenty valid questions...and not just on the characeters' motivations...the Governance, the Society, the Laws, Where is HiX-Man going with this? Is the Dream dead? We've ALL been asking them since HoX-PoX started.

But when some of those questions have been irrefutably answered, on page and in panel...and yet you dig in and continue to ask the same questions and repeat your poorly presented position, without even an ouce of comprehension and an open mind...that's just braying.

I can't speak donkey, so I won't even try.

Wrong. You're right the questions have been answered in the comic books, and yet many people want to bury their head in the sand about what it really means or just go along with it and don't want the uncomfortable questions to be asked because it ruins the mood of the aesthetic. The problems of Krkaoa are not hidden, not from us. But are they accepted? That is truly where things start to get unsettling. There have been instances of people likening Krkaoa to the current protests, and sure there are many valid reasons for this but in these times it highlights another alarming theme impacting the world right now: fascism. Too many are missing the signs of that and think just because it's about mutants that they can't be fascist.

It's not about happening an open mind it's about examining the world in front of you and Hickman may be subtle but he isn't that subtle. Does he have to have a mutant say "Make Krakoa Great Again" before the implications hit? These next few years are going to get real tense when the time for subtlety is over.

Again, you're right: the questions have been answered in panels and what occurred didn't make people blink. It was embraced.

Xavier's dream is over, whoever this person calling himself is Xavier - that's another story.

Hickman began this story in House of X#1 with the title: "The Last Dream of Professor X" - what does that tell you about what Hickman thinks about Xavier's dream?

[cyclops_was_right]

Wrong. You're right the questions have been answered in the comic books, and yet many people want to bury their head in the sand about what it really means or just go along with it and don't want the uncomfortable questions to be asked because it ruins the mood of the aesthetic. The problems of Krkaoa are not hidden, not from us. But are they accepted? That is truly where things start to get unsettling. There have been instances of people likening Krkaoa to the current protests, and sure there are many valid reasons for this but in these times it highlights another alarming theme impacting the world right now: fascism. Too many are missing the signs of that and think just because it's about mutants that they can't be fascist.

It's not about happening an open mind it's about examining the world in front of you and Hickman may be subtle but he isn't that subtle. Does he have to have a mutant say "Make Krakoa Great Again" before the implications hit? These next few years are going to get real tense when the time for subtlety is over.

Again, you're right: the questions have been answered in panels and what occurred didn't make people blink. It was embraced.

Xavier's dream is over, whoever this person calling himself is Xavier - that's another story.

Hickman began this story in House of X#1 with the title: "The Last Dream of Professor X" - what does that tell you about what Hickman thinks about Xavier's dream?

Yeah, personally I find this aspect of it somewhat frightening not because of what is happening now, but what has already happened in the past.

My own country has used collective guilt concept to justify doing dreadful things to perceived former oppressors making no difference between whether they were actually responsible of a crime or whether they were just born the wrong thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expuls...Czechoslovakia

[People Of The Earth]

That would be so if the current status quo were no longer an extremely violent system towards minorities.

No, that is so regardless of the context they're in. "The end justifies the means" mentality is a Dangerous mentality, people are entitled to Believe it's a necessary path to walk upon, but they can't construe it for Something normal or even desirable.
Again, the worst kind of things happen whenever someone use it to justify his/her action.

It'd be more honest from people supporting that kind of broken logic to acknowledge the slipery slope the X-Men have Fallen into for what it is, rather than pretend it is a normal path to walk upon.

What is dangerous for people who are so discriminated against is having patience.

No one is preaching that, but anger and violence aren't the opposite of patience anyway so it's a moot point… unless you hold a binary perspective on the matter, in which case this discussion is pointless.
The X-Men have never been rooted in that department, groups like the Acolytes or the Brotherhood were.

It's easy to be patient when you are Charles Xavier, a millionaire that people don't even know is a mutant.

He's a publicly recognized mutant figure, people know he is a mutant.

That is why the political powers insist on transmitting softened and manipulated messages from MLK, patience favors the one in power, not the oppressed.

Again, there's a world of things to do between "patience" (which no one is supporting here to begin with, but I'm indulging you for the sake of this exchange) and "anger" getting translated into violence(s).
Violences who favors no one in the grand scheme of things btw, since it'll only polarize people into binary groups: the ones supporting them and the ones who don't. Which dilutes any kind of message who was initially supported by the perpetrators of said violences.

We are at Pride Month. Do you know how Pride Month started? With black trans women breaking **** in the police in Stonewall. Not being polite.

And why would real world issues parallel in any way the mutants/sapiens Relationship in-universe? It's nonsensical to compare People who shoot laser beams or manipulate minds in fiction to people in our world, with various identies or sexual orientations who, in fact, aren't Dangerous in themselves countrary to superpowers.

[Icefanatic]

This isn't about a panel or two. These are about big events unless you think working with cartels, not having a democracy, being ok with letting serial killers like Sabretooth unleashed without any restraints, not allowing mutants to have the right to lawyers in the courts and having the Quiet Council judge every court case aren't worth worrying about. There are others but that's all I can think of at the moment. Why would the things not worth questioning? Why are they acceptable?

You'r omitting the fact that the conversation isn't just about Krakoa, the narrative is that the X-men gave all that up after M-Day. Which is false.

There is no "if." Evidence has nothing to do with this, this is about people being ok with the status quo are wanting people to be quite about bringing up the uncomfortable practices of Krakoa as if Krkaoa isn't worth any scrutiny. Contradicted by what? The defines within the last age or to have been extremely vague and to be taken as truth without the tiniest evidence, just that the illusion of more posters having a specific opinions on things and that it being a popular opinion in the forum they're right. Instead we're all supposed to take whatever Xavier's doing with Krakoa as right, no questions allowed. His word is law. Does that sound like Xavier to you?

I think that you missed the point in that I was largely in agreement with you. Maybe my wording was confusing?

I'll ask you a question, how do feel about X-fans who think Xavier dram included making a dictatorship with him at the top? Because many people are are ok with that.

Simply put, I don't consider those people true X-Fans. They are more Brotherhood/MLF fans who have been pushing for the X-Men to become more like that for at least a decade here. They think Magneto's goals of Separatism and Supremacy are what Xavier should have been for all along. They largely consider morality and heroism antiquated notions of a bygone era, or have ideas of what those things are that only resemble them in name.

It's part of why I don't post here more often.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I think that you missed the point in that I was largely in agreement with you. Maybe my wording was confusing?

Yeah, we'd had a misunderstanding. Sorry about that.

Simply put, I don't consider those people true X-Fans. They are more Brotherhood/MLF fans who have been pushing for the X-Men to become more like that for at least a decade here. They think Magneto's goals of Separatism and Supremacy are what Xavier should have been for all along. They largely consider morality and heroism antiquated notions of a bygone era, or have ideas of what those things are that only resemble them in name.

Yep.

It's part of why I don't post here more often.

I don't blame you for that, I wish there were more fans like you posting here.

[Zelena]

For me, there's a difference between beliefs and how to concretely apply them.

How I understood Xavier's dream: there's no difference in what matters to live in society between a human without powers and a mutant. Both wants to live a 'normal life': be useful to society, having friends, loves ones… These are simple things that make people happy. Both are equal too: Moira Mac Taggart, as a human with no powers, was respected by the X-men. She was courageous, intelligent, kind-hearted… Relationships were based on respect and equity and not about who had the most of power… It's more or less what is written in constitutions of democracies and international organisations.

Now, I don't have problems with mutants living on a island if it's the only way for them to be happy. There are principles and there's 'reality'… It's just: the mutants are on the island, the humans are not there, it's no more a problem of relationship between humans and mutants, so what, it's the end of the story? Or the authors are able to find new plots to entertain the readers. And, the principles, the generous ideas, do they still exist? Does the 'X-men brand' still exist? Or it is diluted in this 'mutant thing'?

As a reaction to the cruelty of the world, I don't have a problem with X-men being harsher than before, but what remains exactly of the people they have been? Where's the tension between what they want, what they desire and what they need to do? The endless dilemmas Claremont loved so much depict when he put his characters in dramatic situations. As soldiers who blindly follow orders, the X-men can only be boring.

[Glio]

Xavier was not publicly a mutant until New X-Men. After that, Avengers Dissasembled / House of M happened and he stopped being the leader of the X-Men.

All the time he was the public leader of the mutant movement he did it by posing as a human. He was not known as a mutant, to the world he was a human millionaire intellectual who occasionally went to conferences to talk

[Havok83]

Xavier was not publicly a mutant until New X-Men. After that, Avengers Dissasembled / House of M happened and he stopped being the leader of the X-Men.

All the time he was the public leader of the mutant movement he did it by posing as a human. He was not known as a mutant, to the world he was a human millionaire intellectual who occasionally went to conferences to talk

That never quite made sense considering he was the public face of the X-men. He'd openly speak for and stand alongside them. Like no one suspected?

[Glio]

That never quite made sense considering he was the public face of the X-men. He'd openly speak for and stand alongside them. Like no one suspected?

People had to assume that he was simply an eccentric wealthy white man spending his money on charitable causes.

Xavier was one of the world's greatest experts on genetics, so it wasn't so strange that he was interested in mutants. It wasn't even his idea to admit that he was a mutant, Cassandra Nova did it using his body. In retrospect, Moira's retcon makes more sense, after all, Xavier used the same strategy as her except that she knew how to keep her cover longer.

It's like no one suspected that Iron Man was Tony Stark and not "his bodyguard". Civilians in Marvel are a bit stupid.

[Zelena]

People had to assume that he was simply an eccentric wealthy white man spending his money on charitable causes.

Xavier was one of the world's greatest experts on genetics, so it wasn't so strange that he was interested in mutants. It wasn't even his idea to admit that he was a mutant, Cassandra Nova did it using his body. In retrospect, Moira's retcon makes more sense, after all, Xavier used the same strategy as her except that she knew how to keep her cover longer.

It's like no one suspected that Iron Man was Tony Stark and not "his bodyguard". Civilians in Marvel are a bit stupid.

How could Iron Man have been Tony Stark's bodyguard? He could never appear next to him?

[Glio]

How could Iron Man have been Tony Stark's bodyguard? He could never appear next to him?

James Rhodes sometimes wore the armor when they needed to convince someone who was suspicious.