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  1. #331
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    We don't know the details of how she did that, it's all conjecture right now. And she didn't convince him, she "broke" him.
    if you to think Moira broke Charles a lil misogynistic don't ya think?
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  2. #332
    Fantastic Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    painting all "flatscans" as mutant haters is kinda ironic. Sure there are quite a few, but it's never been shown as being actually a shared point of view. It's more like the classic handful of bad apples in a bushel.
    But what if those bad apples come from a rotten tree? Both human governments and individuals have gone to extreme measures to murder, maim, and eliminate mutant kind. Yes, this wasnít all humans, but the vast majority of humans donít say or do anything to stop this treatment. Through the context of X-Men comics human allies are the exception, not the rule.

  3. #333
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    But what if those bad apples come from a rotten tree? Both human governments and individuals have gone to extreme measures to murder, maim, and eliminate mutant kind. Yes, this wasn’t all humans, but the vast majority of humans don’t say or do anything to stop this treatment. Through the context of X-Men comics human allies are the exception, not the rule.
    You can easily flip that around.

    What about the number of mutants that have gone out of their way to try to maim, murder, and eliminate humankind? Most mutants don't try to stop them, usually it was just the X-men trying and it seems they've given up.

  4. #334
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    You can easily flip that around.

    What about the number of mutants that have gone out of their way to try to maim, murder, and eliminate humankind? Most mutants don't try to stop them, usually it was just the X-men trying and it seems they've given up.
    Most Mutants like that are victims of human cruelty.Why get surprised when the dog you abuse bites back?!
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  5. #335
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Most Mutants like that are victims of human cruelty.Why get surprised when the dog you abuse bites back?!
    Who really started it? The first real public appearance of mutants was Magneto launching an attack on a military base claiming how mutants were going to wipe out humanity and take over the world. Prior to that, mutants were mostly just rumors.

    It's more like people distrusting dogs because the first time they ever saw one, it ran into the middle of town and started biting everyone it saw.

  6. #336
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Who really started it? The first real public appearance of mutants was Magneto launching an attack on a military base claiming how mutants were going to wipe out humanity and take over the world. Prior to that, mutants were mostly just rumors.

    It's more like people distrusting dogs because the first time they ever saw one, it ran into the middle of town and started biting everyone it saw.
    Did said mutant appear the moment before doing so fully formed?

    If the answer to that question is anything like a "No...", "Who Really Started It?..." might not be as simple as you seem to be trying to frame it right there.

  7. #337
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Did said mutant appear the moment before doing so fully formed?

    If the answer to that question is anything like a "No...", "Who Really Started It?..." might not be as simple as you seem to be trying to frame it right there.
    You're average person didn't know anything about mutants until Magneto appeared on the scene declaring himself superior and that humans must be destroyed.

    I think that's a safe place to consider the start.

  8. #338
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Who really started it? The first real public appearance of mutants was Magneto launching an attack on a military base claiming how mutants were going to wipe out humanity and take over the world. Prior to that, mutants were mostly just rumors.
    The folks that held magneto back from saving his daughter from being burned to death
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    It's more like people distrusting dogs because the first time they ever saw one, it ran into the middle of town and started biting everyone it saw.
    But a rational person knows animals very rarely attack unprovoked
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    You're average person didn't know anything about mutants until Magneto appeared on the scene declaring himself superior and that humans must be destroyed.

    I think that's a safe place to consider the start.
    lol soooo bigots whose only interactions with *insert minority* is what they see on a sensationalist TV program and the assumptions they form are justified?
    GrindrStone(D)

  9. #339
    Fantastic Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    You can easily flip that around.

    What about the number of mutants that have gone out of their way to try to maim, murder, and eliminate humankind? Most mutants don't try to stop them, usually it was just the X-men trying and it seems they've given up.
    Note that you had to say “try to”. There has been no major human genocide done by mutants because the X-Men (other mutants) were there to stop it. Also the number of heroic mutants that the reader has been presented with certainly outnumber the number of villainous mutants.

  10. #340
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    this dream nonsense its like someone said about the american dream:
    It's called a dream because you have to be asleep to belive in it, same with xavier's

  11. #341
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    You're average person didn't know anything about mutants until Magneto appeared on the scene declaring himself superior and that humans must be destroyed.

    I think that's a safe place to consider the start.
    If we're talking in terms of "Really...", how much John/Jane Public is aware is something of a side issue... No?

    If we're talking about where it actually "Really..." started, it's before the event that you mentioned.

  12. #342
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Yes, she broke his dream. You can do that by perfectly mundane methods. Xavier has already seen in other lives how his dream failed and in this same one he has also seen how it led nowhere. Does it seem so strange to you that someone gives up something they have seen that doesn't work?
    Agreed.
    I don't believe we were meant to take HoX/PoX as literal, word for word...especially those key moments.

    She broke his dream...and thus the man. Because up to that point Xavier's dream of peaceful co-existence was everything to him.
    The realisation that it fails time and time again, even after a genuine attempt at staying out of Humanity's way (When they formed the mutant colony on the moon) would have been heart-breaking for Xavier and Moira knew and understood that. But from her perspective, it was absolutely necessary to do so, or else they couldn't move forward.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  13. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    If we're talking in terms of "Really...", how much John/Jane Public is aware is something of a side issue... No?

    If we're talking about where it actually "Really..." started, it's before the event that you mentioned.
    With Magneto himself, it started with him because he was a minority who was in a concentration camp by the Nazis. They're Nazis, him being a mutant as besides the point - they'd have tried to oppress him for being Jewish.

    If you really want to go down the rabbit hole of mutant/humanity relations we get into beings like Apocalypse and Selene. Apocalypse was oppressed and abused because of he was a mutant, but that wasn't what defined him philosophy, that was from his adopted human father - that's how he came to learn about "Survival of the Fittest," as well as being spurned by a princess. He was right to be angry at humans doing him wrong, but humans accepted him, as well and his agenda isn't really about protecting mutant kind - he just wants the strongest mutants to dominate the world, not because of people being racist against him but because he's a delusional psychopath who can't form connections with people. I can't comment on Selene too much, but she followed a path like that.

    Mutant bigots biggest platform was provided by Magneto himself, and in doing so he and mutant supremacists like him, escalated tensions deliberately because they wanted a war where they won and dominated humanity. Average humans who were apathetic or supported mutant rights didn't come into it on that side. And mutant terrorism provided incentive to fan the flames of fear because what human in their right mind would be ok with a mutant who wants servants, not equals?

    Edit: And Kang being Rama-Tut, can't forget him. His desire to stop Apocalypse from over throwing him because he knew how dangerous he'd become was a self fulfilling prophecy. It wasn't until much, much later that he'd be retconned into being a mutant bigot.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 06-29-2020 at 05:31 AM.

  14. #344
    Fantastic Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Did said mutant appear the moment before doing so fully formed?

    If the answer to that question is anything like a "No...", "Who Really Started It?..." might not be as simple as you seem to be trying to frame it right there.
    Also the X-Men responded every time there was a mutant attack. Humans had equal representation of mutants out to hurt them and mutants that actively tried to help them. On the other hand there were no large groups of humans coming to the mutants rescue after Genosha and other extinction events. At this point I think it’s smart for mutants to have a healthy distrust of humans.

  15. #345
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    You're average person didn't know anything about mutants until Magneto appeared on the scene declaring himself superior and that humans must be destroyed.

    I think that's a safe place to consider the start.
    You can see in numerous comics set before Magneto made a public appearance that mutants were already mistreated.

    Hell, Weapon Plus was born in World War II.

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