What of Xavier's Dream?

[Kisinith]

Yeah, even with the Sentinels being introduced in the 1960s and the angry crowds that formed, Stan Lee's writing very much gave me an impression that definitely feels less dystopian than the feeling later writers have given me, which were likely inspired by dystopian stories such as Days of Future Past. In contrast to the Sentinels and riots, 60s stories also showed non-powered humans being friendly to the X-Men and recognizing that other people feared them, and I feel that mutants like Beast joining the Avengers in the 70s and not really receiving a lot of backlash from crowds added another factor in the complexities in the relations as well. At the very least, I do think there's a difference between:

A. Getting some progress in humans and mutants getting along is hard.

B. Getting some progress in humans and mutants getting along is impossible.

And I also feel that, like you were talking about with Claremont's stories that were Days of Future Past and God Loves, Man Kills, the 80s saw human/mutant relations move more to the forefront, but even with all the bad things that happened at that time, there still seemed to be hope and characters didn't seemed to be shamed for having hope in the first place.

The 90s are definitely the era when the antagonism towards mutants really started ramping up, probably starting with X-Tinction Agenda in 1990 and snowballing into the early 2000s with other unfortunate events such as Operation: Zero Tolerance and the Genosha genocide in 2001, as well as extremist religious cults. If it didn't seem impossible already, then depowering most the mutants in House of M in 2005 surely made it seem as such for many, and left this sort of feeling of the X-Men limping with many wounds ever since, until recently that is.

If Xavier's dream started to feel pointless and foolish to some because of the feeling that humanity is incapable of getting better, impossible to reason with, and is irredeemable, then I myself feel there's a responsibility to be had with the writers that, consciously or not, wrote stories that increased humans' hostility towards mutants, but failed to update Xavier's dream accordingly in response. Hickman seemed to take a step back and realize just how bad the hostility against the mutants had gotten, so on his part, a big reason he probably wrote House/Powers was with an intention of updating Xavier's dream in a way that it accordingly addresses the increased hostility that had come before, and that it's not impossible for groups of mutants and humans to live peacefully on the same planet, even if they're far apart from each other.

I agree with your analysis. Extrapolating from what he's said I also think that one of Hickman's goals is to permanently ratchet down the tension. Magically hand-waving it away doesn't solve the problem, lots of writers have tried that and sooner or later (usually much sooner than later) someone goes back to that well. If however you are able to do so via the narrative as part of a long well received run there is a better chance of it sticking. That's pure supposition on my part, I acknowledge but what can I say, his run has me, dare I say it... hopeful.

[Electricmastro]

I agree with your analysis. Extrapolating from what he's said I also think that one of Hickman's goals is to permanently ratchet down the tension. Magically hand-waving it away doesn't solve the problem, lots of writers have tried that and sooner or later (usually much sooner than later) someone goes back to that well. If however you are able to do so via the narrative as part of a long well received run there is a better chance of it sticking. That's pure supposition on my part, I acknowledge but what can I say, his run has me, dare I say it... hopeful.

Indeed. I'm starting to realize that, assuming Hickman's goal ultimately pays off, future X-Men comics would have otherwise probably been pigeonholed into a scenario where it becomes a dystopian comic first and foremost, and risks overshadowing/minimizing the kinds of fantasy, sci-fi, or superheroics that noticeably add more flavor, and that a writer with less skill than Hickman's who would have tried to ratchet down the tension in a way that would have allowed for more kinds of stories to be told would, as you said, eventually have been overwritten by someone else going back to the well, and further emphasize on a dystopian tone, and then probably have the mutants rapidly go through atrocity after atrocity after atrocity sneaking around the corner to the point that most people probably wouldn't feel fun or enjoyment from a series that, at least if you ask me, started out fun and enjoyable in the first place while also having meaningful material to say all the same.

[Kisinith]

So just a quick observation based on Excalibur. Shogo lives on the mainland of Krakoa and Apocalypse himself extended an invitation to Brian Braddock to come there so 3rd book in and proof positive that the prohibition on humans isn't absolute.


PS: Excalibur is off to a pretty damn good start

[gambit2051]

So just a quick observation based on Excalibur. Shogo lives on the mainland of Krakoa and Apocalypse himself extended an invitation to Brian Braddock to come there so 3rd book in and proof positive that the prohibition on humans isn't absolute.


PS: Excalibur is off to a pretty damn good start

AND it delves STRAIGHT into Magic and, I hope opens the door to, the Soul. Which has been a sticking point about how Mutant Resurrection works: What about the Soul?

As for Xavier's Dream...he has admitted he was Wrong after seeing it fail in 6-7 timelines (1 & 2 are unclear, the rest all appear pretty clear, sometimes it fails BECAUSE of Moira though which is something that i hope is brought up)

I just looked back through the TL and found Moira helped tear down his dream in TL8 and TL9. She helped fuel Xavier's Dream in TL4 & TL5. TL6, it is really hard to know for certain because Cylobel from TL8 and Moira working with Apocalypse is shown in the far future of TL6 in the same tube she was placed in in TL8. Meaning, TL6 appears to be one where Apocalypse was still the last one standing but she was taken by Homo-Novissma and kept alive early on.....have I mentioned how much i love all the plot points and complexities?

[David Walton]

Yeah, even with the Sentinels being introduced in the 1960s and the angry crowds that formed, Stan Lee's writing very much gave me an impression that definitely feels less dystopian than the feeling later writers have given me, which were likely inspired by dystopian stories such as Days of Future Past. In contrast to the Sentinels and riots, 60s stories also showed non-powered humans being friendly to the X-Men and recognizing that other people feared them, and I feel that mutants like Beast joining the Avengers in the 70s and not really receiving a lot of backlash from crowds added another factor in the complexities in the relations as well. At the very least, I do think there's a difference between:

A. Getting some progress in humans and mutants getting along is hard.

B. Getting some progress in humans and mutants getting along is impossible.

Couldn't agree with your point more! And I think Hickman's done a wonderful course correction, one that feels like there's real danger to the X-Men but also the possibility of better times ahead.

And I also feel that, like you were talking about with Claremont's stories that were Days of Future Past and God Loves, Man Kills, the 80s saw human/mutant relations move more to the forefront, but even with all the bad things that happened at that time, there still seemed to be hope and characters didn't seemed to be shamed for having hope in the first place.

The 90s are definitely the era when the antagonism towards mutants really started ramping up, probably starting with X-Tinction Agenda in 1990 and snowballing into the early 2000s with other unfortunate events such as Operation: Zero Tolerance and the Genosha genocide in 2001, as well as extremist religious cults. If it didn't seem impossible already, then depowering most of the mutants in House of M in 2005 surely made it seem as such for many, and left this sort of feeling of the X-Men limping with many wounds ever since, until recently that is.

If Xavier's dream started to feel pointless and foolish to some because of the feeling that humanity is incapable of getting better, impossible to reason with, and is irredeemable, then I myself feel there's a responsibility to be had with the writers that, consciously or not, wrote stories that increased humans' hostility towards mutants, but failed to update Xavier's dream accordingly in response. Hickman seemed to take a step back and realize just how bad the hostility against the mutants had gotten, so on his part, a big reason he probably wrote House/Powers was with an intention of updating Xavier's dream in a way that it accordingly addresses the increased hostility that had come before, and that it's not impossible for groups of mutants and humans to live peacefully on the same planet, even if they're far apart from each other.

Nice analysis. 100% agreed.

[Devaishwarya]

You can’t have Xavier’s dream ever come true. It would make for boring comics

Even now...when things look and feel hopeful (in Universe) we (and they do too, from what they encountered in Russia in Marauders 01) know that they still have obstacles, challenges and difficulties to overcome

[JTFSXX]

Honestly, my favorite commentary so far on the current state of the Mutant psyche was Scott and his Dad's conversation in X-Men. "You're a good boy." Indeed.

[Electricmastro]

Nice analysis. 100% agreed.

Thanks, and I wanted to mention that in regards to Stan Lee's writing, I think back to a story he wrote a story in 1962 for Amazing Adult Fantasy #14 that seems to recognize that, although humanity is capable of being bad, humanity also has the capability to eventually becoming better and come of age, welcoming those who are different and realizing they don't deserve destruction. I think it's this sort of philosophy that Stan Lee had when he created the X-Men that, although some may say is too rosy and may not agree with it, is still a respectable view to have if you ask me:

[Devaishwarya]

As of HiX-man's X-Men 04...the dream still exists. It has been re-shaped and re-evaluated from a more pragmatic perspective.
Which is quite understandable, given the new information and realisations Xavier has been given, through Moira.

[H-E-D]

Cyclops was right.


Too many people here don't understand what segregation means.

[Ichijinijisanji]

He woke up.

[Havok83]

As of HiX-man's X-Men 04...the dream still exists. It has been re-shaped and re-evaluated from a more pragmatic perspective.
Which is quite understandable, given the new information and realisations Xavier has been given, through Moira.

Xavier hasnt been given any new information though. As per HoX, the stuff that Moira revealed to him has always been apart of his dream and the X-men

[Devaishwarya]

I was speaking more to the fact that everything she tried either on her own or with Charles and/or Erik and Apocalypse throughout her lives...pretty much failed.

It's that knowledge of failure that forces Xavier (with Moira's obvious push/idea) to accept the fact that the dream has to be re-interpreted and revised going forward.

[The Thunderbird]

I think the goal should always be peaceful coexistence at least for the idealistic visionary mutants. Peaceful coexistence does not necessarily have to mean good behavior and turning the other cheek. Kind of like how Wolverine seems to interact with humans more than most other mutants and respects them in spite of being a rowdy, violent little #$@#$.

[Ferro]

you can't achieve a thing just sleeping, its was daam time to wake up