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  1. #511
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    ...

    Hickman is telling a story, you can agree or disagree with that story any way you like and yes discussion is great but going around judging people for the media or the story they like is what I have an issue with, because the discussion is supposed to be about the story, not about the people reading it.
    Exactly.

    Wanting to make a group of readers(along with whatever you perceive their reaction to be...) even a large part of the discussion is going to understandably be dismissed by those readers.

    They are trying to simply discuss the story itself.

  2. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I agree there´s much more to the story than Xavier and yes Percy seems to be touching this on X-force with Domino and X-factor may reveal a lot other things. That´s why I like to wait to see what other developments are being added to the story, so we can see why the characters are making those decisions.
    But we don't have to wait to speculate on those developments, and nobody is doing that. They have their own ideas and this creates conflict among the posters. That's normal in fandom.

    What whitewashing? So they should be questioning the same way you are? they can´t just enjoy reading a story?
    This thread has just been whitewashing Apocalypse as if he was a hero, and you've been in numerous threads which have lionised the villains. I've lost track of the arguments I've had that the mutant super-villains in the X-men titles are in fact super-villains. Acknowledging the facts of the story, rather than making fanon as if this were discussing fanfic rather comics published by Marvel. Icefanatic showed an example of this on page 34. Except they're not just enjoying it, everyone does that, it's that they're getting the exact opposite message the stories are telling and rather than do introspection over that being true they go into denial.

    I agree the purifiers can be more nuanced as well as all those angry humans who always want to get the mutants for some thing or another but in the same sense we have gotten to see some other humans who want to defend the mutants, they may not be as close to the X-men as Valerie Cooper used to be but they are still there, but that´s a choice of the writer and it´s not even a big part of the story Hickman is telling, his premise is "How can the X-men avoid a war with humanity?
    Except the latter is being ignored to push a narrative of mutants = good, humans = bad. Even obviously evil mutants, beings that only share the trait of an x-gene with truly oppressed mutants. The fact Hickman's run has shoved the mutant supporting humans further aside only increases this idea that they're right, and when told that it's not it's attacked.

    How are you so sure that's the premise? What if the premise is "What if the X-men became the Brotherhood?"

    Krakoa seems to be one of the solutions they have, we may see more in the near future. I don´t find this problematic at all, all stories have a premise and a problem to deal with and the story is supposed to deal with the problem and development of the characters once the story is told.
    Krakoa is a solution they chose, it's not the only one we should expect to be right. And we certainly don't need to wait for any shoe to drop, we've had numerous reasons to find problematic ideas within it so being quiet about that obvious fact stifles discussion for no reason other than people simply don't want to acknowledge it. All stories have ideas in it which we can analyse and complain about. That you personally don't have any problems on it is beside the point since many people are reading it, not a single individual. We all have a right to voice our opinions. The story will do its own thing, we'll do another because we're readers - that's our role in media. To react, contemplate, be inspired, complain and so forth.

    Hickman is telling a story, you can agree or disagree with that story any way you like and yes discussion is great but going around judging people for the media or the story they like is what I have an issue with, because the discussion is supposed to be about the story, not about the people reading it.
    How readers react to a story is part of entertainment now, this is post-modernism. Especially when how readers react to stories is far more acknowledged now in media. We're also in thread with other people, it'd be remiss to ignore the behaviour of problematic fanbases, which ha come to the fore via the internet and series like Breaking Bad.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...n-walter-white

    "I have kind of lost sympathy for Walt along the way," says Gilligan. "I find it interesting, this sociological phenomenon, that people still root for Walt. Perhaps it says something about the nature of fiction, that viewers have to identify on some level with the protagonist of the show, or maybe he's just interesting because he is good at what he does. Viewers respond to people who are good at their job, even when they are bad."
    Vince Gilligan was the show runner/creator of Breaking Bad. This isn't the first time a creator had an audience mistake the message of their story, see anything Oliver Stone does and Scarface.

  3. #513
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    ...

    This thread has just been whitewashing Apocalypse as if he was a hero, and you've been in numerous threads which have lionised the villains. I've lost track of the arguments I've had that the mutant super-villains in the X-men titles are in fact super-villains. Acknowledging the facts of the story, rather than making fanon as if this were discussing fanfic rather comics published by Marvel. Icefanatic showed an example of this on page 34. Except they're not just enjoying it, everyone does that, it's that they're getting the exact opposite message the stories are telling and rather than do introspection over that being true they go into denial.

    ...
    When walking away with a bag full of heads is a perfectly acceptable reaction to a situation you are presented with, and you choose not to?

    No more debate about if you are the heroes or not.

    It's settled right after that happens.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    ...

    Except the latter is being ignored to push a narrative of mutants = good, humans = bad. Even obviously evil mutants, beings that only share the trait of an x-gene with truly oppressed mutants. The fact Hickman's run has shoved the mutant supporting humans further aside only increases this idea that they're right, and when told that it's not it's attacked.

    How are you so sure that's the premise?
    What if the premise is "What if the X-men became the Brotherhood?"

    ...
    Simple...

    You are essentially saying "How Do You Know That Is An Egg Sandwich And Not Actually A Fried Bologna Sandwich?..."

    After you do so, folks are politely saying "Did You Just Ignore When They Slid A Fried Egg Onto The Bread, And There Was No Bologna Involved At Any Point?..."

    To which, you are replying "But, 'Speculation!..."

    You can speculate all you want about that you see a hidden fried bologna sandwich. That ain't gonna change that we have seen a fried egg sandwich being made. In addition, there's no reason we should really have to entertain much speculation on what is a fried egg sandwich.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    ...

    Vince Gilligan was the show runner/creator of Breaking Bad. This isn't the first time a creator had an audience mistake the message of their story, see anything Oliver Stone does and Scarface.
    Since you have nothing past your personal belief to establish that being what is going on?

    It's time to stop trying to state it as fact.

  4. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    When walking away with a bag full of heads is a perfectly acceptable reaction to a situation you are presented with, and you choose not to?

    No more debate about if you are the heroes or not.

    It's settled right after that happens.
    Here therein lies the conflict. Reducing a very complicated situation which has variables which don't match up with real life marginalised groups in its entirety, reducing the conflict to moral absolutes and positioning Krakoa as it as the sole good solution to end the conflict. In fictional media super-heroes will be judged about their actions about how well they do about being super-heroes, and Hickman's X-men amplified this significantly by picking up the baton from all previous runs on the titles. The moral uncertainty is what draws people in and makes forums like this free advertising for the comics. Drama sells, and Hickman is a master at making his readers debate his works.

    The problem with your analogy is that it works just as well with mutants like Apocalypse as with the Purifiers. All the anti-mutant bigots could vanish from Marvel and they'd remain under threat from mutants like him.

    Simple...

    You are essentially saying "How Do You Know That Is An Egg Sandwich And Not Actually A Fried Bologna Sandwich?..."

    After you do so, folks are politely saying "Did You Just Ignore When They Slid A Fried Egg Onto The Bread, And There Was No Bologna Involved At Any Point?..."

    To which, you are replying "But, 'Speculation!..."

    You can speculate all you want about that you see a hidden fried bologna sandwich. That ain't gonna change that we have seen a fried egg sandwich being made. In addition, there's no reason we should really have to entertain much speculation on what is a fried egg sandwich.
    Everyone speculates, disagreeing with me won't make your stance right. You won't even entertain the possibility that the narrative you assume is being presented is wrong or why someone might view it in a different light. Your analogy fails because this is fiction, messages are subjective. Some people think Walter White's a hero, some people think he's a monster - including his creator.

    Since you have nothing past your personal belief to establish that being what is going on?

    It's time to stop trying to state it as fact.
    I've presented numerous evidence and facts, how you react to them is up to you. It is definite fact that every fandom has people who misread creator intent.

  5. #515
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I agree, can deal and even find interest and fun on discussing the characters personal motives for their actual actions and beliefs, what I don´t quite agree with, is this possition you take where oh if you don´t agree with my criticisms you are being way too affected by the writer, I don´t think this type of discussion leads to anything productive.
    Let's be in-topic, then: Xavier's dream is about not being judged by your apparence, what you are but what you do as a person, an individual. The mutants were divided in “good” and “bad”, and the humans, too… “Good people” could get together and “bad people”, less so… “Bad people” weren't forever in this category and could change…

    But, Krakoa is not that, at all… It's not an “evolution”, an “adaptation”, it's its exact contrary: the mutants “good” and “bad” together, the humans also, and after all, if the “bad mutants” are bad, it's the “human fault”.

    If Wanda were still a mutant, do you think she would be treated so harshly in this forum?

  6. #516
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    ...

    I've presented numerous evidence and facts, how you react to them is up to you. It is definite fact that every fandom has people who misread creator intent.
    No, you really haven't.

    You've gone on quite a bit about what you suspect could be happening, but there's been no real evidence or facts that actually back any of it up.

  7. #517
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Let's be in-topic: Xavier's dream is about not being judged by your apparence, what you are but what you do as a person, an individual. The mutants were divided in “good” and “bad”, and the humans, too… “Good people” could get together and “bad people”, less so… “Bad people” weren't forever in this category and could change…

    But, Krakoa is not that, at all… It's not an “evolution”, an “adaptation”, it's its exact contrary: the mutants “good” and “bad” together, the humans also, and after all, if the “bad mutants” are bad, it's the “human fault”.

    If Wanda were still a mutant, do you think she would be treated so harshly in this forum?
    That's what's happening on Krakoa. You can be whatever you want and do whatever you want while living in Paradise and without harming anyone! Hooray!

    Krakoa is also an adaptation to human treatment of mutantkind. Yippee!

  8. #518
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    That's what's happening on Krakoa. You can be whatever you want and do whatever you want while living in Paradise and without harming anyone! Hooray!

    Krakoa is also an adaptation to human treatment of mutantkind. Yippee!
    No, if you are a human, you are not treated in the same way.

  9. #519
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    No, if you are a human, you are not treated in the same way.
    Krakoa is a mutant country. Shogo is living is also living his best life there.

  10. #520
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    ...

    Everyone speculates, disagreeing with me won't make your stance right. You won't even entertain the possibility that the narrative you assume is being presented is wrong or why someone might view it in a different light. Your analogy fails because this is fiction, messages are subjective. Some people think Walter White's a hero, some people think he's a monster - including his creator.

    ...
    The rough equivalent here would be "Walter White has actually been working for Secret Intelligence Service This Whole Time..."

    None of what is in the series points to it, and it most likely has nothing to do with what was actually happening during the series.

  11. #521
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    No, if you are a human, you are not treated in the same way.
    Why should they be? If a dude went to a sorority rush event would you him to be treated the same as the female potentials? Or someone walked into an army base would you want a complete stranger to be treated like a commanding officer?
    lol sheeesh
    Last edited by BroHomo; 07-07-2020 at 04:35 AM.
    GrindrStone(D)

  12. #522
    Mighty Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    There is so much hypocrisy with that. Like people hate mutants and have told them to go away and they finally have and now its a problem bc they are thriving and possibly could become more influential than the countries which they fled from.
    Black Wall Street, innit. It was never going to be enough for the bigots for them to go away - they needed to no longer exist. Same as how it's never been enough to anti-semites for the Jews to have to live in the ghetto and do the jobs that good honest god-fearing folk won't do.

  13. #523
    Mighty Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    But we don't have to wait to speculate on those developments, and nobody is doing that. They have their own ideas and this creates conflict among the posters. That's normal in fandom.
    Conflict of ideas is one thing, conflict because of the perception of readers is another

    This thread has just been whitewashing Apocalypse as if he was a hero, and you've been in numerous threads which have lionised the villains. I've lost track of the arguments I've had that the mutant super-villains in the X-men titles are in fact super-villains. Acknowledging the facts of the story, rather than making fanon as if this were discussing fanfic rather comics published by Marvel. Icefanatic showed an example of this on page 34. Except they're not just enjoying it, everyone does that, it's that they're getting the exact opposite message the stories are telling and rather than do introspection over that being true they go into denial.
    Hickman´s take on Apocalypse has become popular that´s all, just like many other villains are popular after a writer made an interesting story about them, that´s not whitewashing.


    Except the latter is being ignored to push a narrative of mutants = good, humans = bad. Even obviously evil mutants, beings that only share the trait of an x-gene with truly oppressed mutants. The fact Hickman's run has shoved the mutant supporting humans further aside only increases this idea that they're right, and when told that it's not it's attacked.
    Given the years of world wide persecution of mutants it kind of makes sense for them to develop this idea even if they recognize not all humans are bad but they still have to defend themselves to survive, it´s a logic position to make, it´s a natural conclusion to come to after the decimation years, still this doesn´t mean they will stay on this position during the story.

    How are you so sure that's the premise? What if the premise is "What if the X-men became the Brotherhood?"
    From Magneto´s response to another ambassador who said this was going to end in war, another take is Wolverine´s and Cyclops who are just happy to have a peaceful place for them to live and are ready to defend it with their lives if neccesary just without going around killing humans.

    There´s nothing on the story to support the X-men have become a brotherhood.


    Krakoa is a solution they chose, it's not the only one we should expect to be right. And we certainly don't need to wait for any shoe to drop, we've had numerous reasons to find problematic ideas within it so being quiet about that obvious fact stifles discussion for no reason other than people simply don't want to acknowledge it. All stories have ideas in it which we can analyse and complain about. That you personally don't have any problems on it is beside the point since many people are reading it, not a single individual. We all have a right to voice our opinions. The story will do its own thing, we'll do another because we're readers - that's our role in media. To react, contemplate, be inspired, complain and so forth.
    Contemplate and react all you want, just keep it about the story or make an analysis about the meta message that story is sending, it would be interesting to know if you think that message is appropiate or not, I actually can see why you would think Hickman´s meta message on the story is inappropiate, he has made sure to leave a lot of things ambiguous, but this doesn´t mean other people will see it the same way and their take is as valid as yours imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena
    Let's be in-topic, then: Xavier's dream is about not being judged by your apparence, what you are but what you do as a person, an individual. The mutants were divided in “good” and “bad”, and the humans, too… “Good people” could get together and “bad people”, less so… “Bad people” weren't forever in this category and could change…

    But, Krakoa is not that, at all… It's not an “evolution”, an “adaptation”, it's its exact contrary: the mutants “good” and “bad” together, the humans also, and after all, if the “bad mutants” are bad, it's the “human fault”.
    If the X-men really thought their villains acted bad because of the humans they would have seek them therapy, not pretty clearly stating to them that if they want to live on Krakoa in any way they must respect its laws or be punished, they are not acting like other bad mutants were just angels who got bad because of humankind. Still it´s a fact on X-men comics that the goverments around the world have been trying to destroy or eliminate mutants for years but more so during the decimation era so it makes sense inside story for them to take a defensive position about that even if they know very well not all humans are like that and protecting humanity and the earth is still worth it.

    If Wanda were still a mutant, do you think she would be treated so harshly in this forum?
    YES Children´s Crusade happened while Wanda was still a mutant, she is not treated harshly for not being a mutant, she is treated harshly because her actions were not addressed in a way that got closure for her, the X-men or the decimated mutants, there was no official justice, just a debate about the Avengers and X-men not having an idea what to do with her, that makes it feel like she got away scott free and that leaves a bad taste for the story. It should not be this way but that´s the way things were left between them.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 07-07-2020 at 05:33 AM.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  14. #524
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Why should they be? If a dude went to a sorority rush event would you him to be treated the same as the female potentials? Or someone walked into an army base would you want a complete stranger to be treated like a commanding officer?
    lol sheeesh
    Question of principle…

    And Krakoa is a country not a private club.
    They wanted UN recognition? There is a charter.

  15. #525
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    The thing is that humans can enter Krakoa, if they get permission from the government and a mutant accompanies them. Shogo lives there, Corsair can visit Scott, and Apocalypse invited Brian Braddock to come.

    I also cannot enter the United States without a visa.

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