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  1. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Thats no excuse. I dont expect the average citizen to do anything but where were the Avengers? They were helping with the global catastrophes that Nate started but once the X-men 'died', they didnt give a f--k. They were fine with dozens of heroes disappearing
    Your bias is talking here.
    "They didn't show up = they don't care" is a pretty huge leap to make, and doesn't prove anything per se.
    The only reason you didn't see the rest of the Marvel Universe - Avengers included - react to the X-Men disappearing or do something about the X-Men disappearing is because the X-writers didn't include them in the story, the same way you don't see the X-Men show up in the recent crisis the Avengers had, or the ones faced by whatever other Marvel heroes are facing at the moment.
    Marvel is a shared universe with multiple IPs, you can't expect it to revolve around the X-Men, it's that simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    WTH? The post I quoted flat out said Krakoa is wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Dont jump into a conversation and start making statements about whats been exchanged without reading everything
    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    And for the last time if you are going to respond to someone that wasnt talking to you, do your due diligence about whats been said
    I stand corrected, you were right: icefanatic did factually say Krakoa was wrong.
    My understanding at the time of that post was that Krakoa was wrong for the X-Men though - to either be part of it or to support it instead of fighting it since, as a concept of a mutant-only country, it goes against what the X-Men used to believe in and fight for: coexistence, id est a society where mutants and sapiens would be equals.
    Hence the answer I made to you when you reacted to it.
    And I'm not icefanatic so I can only infer so much from his position but that's still about the X-Men's involvement with Krakoa and the general direction it's taking, much like what are questionning other posters in this thread.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  2. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Conflict of ideas is one thing, conflict because of the perception of readers is another
    It's two angles on the same subject, the audience is not above scrutiny. For example, thinking the message of Scarface was that being a gangster is good despite the fact his story is a tragedy which ended with him getting murdered by his enemies.


    Hickman´s take on Apocalypse has become popular that´s all, just like many other villains are popular after a writer made an interesting story about them, that´s not whitewashing.
    Nope, that in itself would be acceptable but that's not the whole story with Apocalypse and other villains popularity. It's not about readers being fans of characters its about them being fans of his ideals and sugarcoating who he is to hide his villainy. What's surprising is that this affect has enveloped the entire villain wing of Krakoa since they being to the same "club." This includes ignoring and dismissing the characters histories which everyone knows but tries to bury whenever it's bought up. As my arguments with numerous posters attest. Its like being a fan of Darth Vader and trying to ignore the fact he was involved in Alderaan's destruction, despite thinking the Empire was right.


    Given the years of world wide persecution of mutants it kind of makes sense for them to develop this idea even if they recognize not all humans are bad but they still have to defend themselves to survive, it´s a logic position to make, it´s a natural conclusion to come to after the decimation years, still this doesn´t mean they will stay on this position during the story.
    The logical position to make would be make their own country with proper security, not isolate themselves entirely from humanity except criminals like cartels. There are vastly more options with Krakoa than what’s in the books, it’s not simply the right option because Hickman wrote it and Hickman’s not made a secret that this is is gong to crash sooner rather than later. Except they’ve gone too extreme even at this stage, they’ve sold their principles to the highest bidder as fast as they could, that’s why its unsettling.

    From Magneto´s response to another ambassador who said this was going to end in war, another take is Wolverine´s and Cyclops who are just happy to have a peaceful place for them to live and are ready to defend it with their lives if neccesary just without going around killing humans.
    Magneto's a monster who thinks mutants are gods and we're all ants to be stepped on. Cyclops and Wolverine have had doubts about Krakoa, though.


    There´s nothing on the story to support the X-men have become a brotherhood.
    But it is to others, since when have the X-men been ok with Apocalypse throwing their own into magic coffins for his schemes?


    Contemplate and react all you want, just keep it about the story or make an analysis about the meta message that story is sending, it would be interesting to know if you think that message is appropiate or not, I actually can see why you would think Hickman´s meta message on the story is inappropiate, he has made sure to leave a lot of things ambiguous, but this doesn´t mean other people will see it the same way and their take is as valid as yours imo.
    Why wouldn't you want to analyse how readers react to stories? I've been doing that, others didn't like what I (and others) were thinking about it. Hickman's doing many things but ambiguity about morality isn't one of them. It didn't take very long for Krakoa to get into bed with cartels and that's as black and white as you can get in media. X-men: The Gift had a storyline about why that was a bad idea. Don't conflate what readers do with Hickman, they're two separate entities, readers go in their own directions with media. Except many of those people don't see what myself and others view as valid, they view it as an attack. I've never questioned Hickman himself, I trust he knows what he's doing. Another part of this is that it becomes difficult not to notice this resistance to any “popular’ sentiment which forces posters to submit or leave via peer pressure.

    If the X-men really thought their villains acted bad because of the humans they would have seek them therapy, not pretty clearly stating to them that if they want to live on Krakoa in any way they must respect its laws or be punished, they are not acting like other bad mutants were just angels who got bad because of humankind. Still it´s a fact on X-men comics that the goverments around the world have been trying to destroy or eliminate mutants for years but more so during the decimation era so it makes sense inside story for them to take a defensive position about that even if they know very well not all humans are like that and protecting humanity and the earth is still worth it.
    Except many of those mutants act evil because its their nature or personality and are physically dangerous. They've tried therapy on some of them like Sabretooth, he ended up nearly killing Psylocke and Tabitha. What is this "if" X-men thought their villains were bad? They've all tried to murder, torture and experiment on various X-men and other mutants and other species before. Continuously. Therapy won't help the X-men if the people they're trying to do that try to kill them, Moira herself has spent her life trying to do this and failed horribly. Krkao, and how its supportsers in the readership, react to these dangerous mutants is that once they become citizens they start of from scratch, despite the fact it’s not like Krkoa is putting in effort to make them safe members of society. They know how dangerous these mutants are and are ok putting other people at risk without any precautions. The X-men were never this slack with security as super-heroes. Governments have been doing that most of their lives, but they never lost hope in Xavier’s dream, Krakoa has them doing that. Not every decision is right simply because some humans are bad, and this ignores how other mutants have helped those groups by creating fear with murder and mass destruction. They want a race war, not peace. Or, with mutants like Selene, Sabretooth and Apocalypse, they simply crave violence and oppress any mutant they stumble across.

    Krakao is far more cynical about humanity then you think.

    YES Children´s Crusade happened while Wanda was still a mutant, she is not treated harshly for not being a mutant, she is treated harshly because her actions were not addressed in a way that got closure for her, the X-men or the decimated mutants, there was no official justice, just a debate about the Avengers and X-men not having an idea what to do with her, that makes it feel like she got away scott free and that leaves a bad taste for the story. It should not be this way but that´s the way things were left between them.
    This erases how badly Wanda was treated by the X-men, as if everything they was right. They continue to put it all on Wanda, instead of people like Doom. Excedropt there wre mutants who did stand up for her, and they were ignored. There was an actual battle between the X-men and the Avengers over Wanda surrendering herself to the X-men, it wasn’t an exchange of harsh words. What characters, and readers, feel don’t make it right – it’s feelings. That’s what a trial would be good for, if Krkao believed in having a court system rather than a joke. This paragraph is very ambiguous, are you talking about the characters, readers or both?

  3. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Let's say that we buy that calls are being made on the "Species..." component of overall biological classification.

    If that's actually the case?

    Then, it ain't racism.
    It still is discrimination, the opposite of what Xavier's dream used to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    I can assure you that if that is the message that it tries to send to the rest of the world, it must be doing it wrong because it is not the one that others receive.
    True, it's hard to believe in it given the current leader the americans elected a few years ago, but surely they'll come to their senses at the end of the year and oust him.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  4. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It's a nation that is still just putting itself together, and the outside world sent human mercenaries onto the island to assassinate their leader after, what...just 2 weeks? For the crime of wanting their own safe space and a period of adjustment. How dare they?
    That commando was sponsored by what is factually a terror organization made up of extremists and supremacists.
    Unless you are saying the main population of Earth is made up of extremists and supremacists, the action of that commando is hardly representative from the rest of Humanity.
    It's as short-sighted to condemn the whole lot of them, than it is to do IRL whenever a terror attack occur.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    There is an attitude of entitlement here. The human race has dominion over the entire rest of the globe. If they are not allowed on Krakoa without family connections or a special invitation for a period (not necessarily permanently)...well, they can suck it up for a while. They have literally everywhere else to go.
    Which would be fine, imo, if Krakoa wasn't led by the former X-Men's mentor, senior members of the X-Men and have X-Men graduates intersped into its organization.
    They should have dropped that name the same way they dropped Xavier's dream, that would be more honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    And this is after the systems in place have made life incredibly dangerous for the average mutant, not even the legit potentially dangerous ones like Magneto.
    True enough. Though given any mutant has the potential to kill/maim/cause a catastrophe when awakening his/her power, the wariness around them is understandable.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    This is a world where some random schmuck with a horn on his head that doesn't do anything will get killed for being perceived as dangerous even before he does anything.
    Cue the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Again, this is just like the Amazons in Wonder Woman. If they were real, i'd be uncomfortable with the fact that the Amazons would be wary around me just because I was male. But knowing their history that the last encounters they had with men involved them slandering their reputations, destroying their home, enslaving them, beating them, raping them, etc., I like to think I'd get over myself and respect the fact that I have no right to barge into their home when I have one of my own (and can go anywhere else). The onus isn't really on them to fix things after they were victims.

    Basically, everyone should be like Steve Trevor.
    Very true.
    Though the Amazons don't have the same historical goal the X-Men have had since their inception, which is the whole point of this thread.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  5. #560
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    ...

    But it is to others, since when have the X-men been ok with Apocalypse throwing their own into magic coffins for his schemes?

    ...
    LITS pretty clearly pointed out that there is nothing in the titles that actually pointing to the "X" teams turning into The Brotherhood.

    That other folks want to cook up a reality that has nothing to do with what is actually happening in the titles?

    Folks besides them are under no obligation to put that nonsense on a level footing with what actually is happening in the titles.



    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    ...


    Why wouldn't you want to analyse how readers react to stories?
    I've been doing that, others didn't like what I (and others) were thinking about it. Hickman's doing many things but ambiguity about morality isn't one of them. It didn't take very long for Krakoa to get into bed with cartels and that's as black and white as you can get in media. X-men: The Gift had a storyline about why that was a bad idea. Don't conflate what readers do with Hickman, they're two separate entities, readers go in their own directions with media. Except many of those people don't see what myself and others view as valid, they view it as an attack. I've never questioned Hickman himself, I trust he knows what he's doing. Another part of this is that it becomes difficult not to notice this resistance to any “popular’ sentiment which forces posters to submit or leave via peer pressure.

    ...
    The fact that they are trying to shoehorn things that are not actually taking place into what they are calling "Analysis..", for starters.

  6. #561
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    ...

    Except many of those mutants act evil because its their nature or personality and are physically dangerous. They've tried therapy on some of them like Sabretooth, he ended up nearly killing Psylocke and Tabitha. What is this "if" X-men thought their villains were bad? They've all tried to murder, torture and experiment on various X-men and other mutants and other species before. Continuously. Therapy won't help the X-men if the people they're trying to do that try to kill them, Moira herself has spent her life trying to do this and failed horribly. Krkao, and how its supportsers in the readership, react to these dangerous mutants is that once they become citizens they start of from scratch, despite the fact it’s not like Krkoa is putting in effort to make them safe members of society. They know how dangerous these mutants are and are ok putting other people at risk without any precautions. The X-men were never this slack with security as super-heroes. Governments have been doing that most of their lives, but they never lost hope in Xavier’s dream, Krakoa has them doing that. Not every decision is right simply because some humans are bad, and this ignores how other mutants have helped those groups by creating fear with murder and mass destruction. They want a race war, not peace. Or, with mutants like Selene, Sabretooth and Apocalypse, they simply crave violence and oppress any mutant they stumble across.

    Krakao is far more cynical about humanity then you think.

    ...
    As for this particular component of the overall story being told...

    It makes right around "Zero..." sense to look at a mutant homeland that wasted no time in decisively dealing with what Sabertooth did, and say "I Believe They Are Turing Into The Brotherhood..."

    Never mind that it shows pretty clearly that said homeland is moving in the opposite direction.

    Again, this sort of willingness to ignore what is actually happening in the titles is why folks aren't in any hurry to entertain these tangents or take this sort of "Analysis.." very seriously.

  7. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    LITS pretty clearly pointed out that there is nothing in the titles that actually pointing to the "X" teams turning into The Brotherhood.
    And they'd be wrong. As shown at the bottom of this post.

    That other folks want to cook up a reality that has nothing to do with what is actually happening in the titles?

    Folks besides them are under no obligation to put that nonsense on a level footing with what actually is happening in the titles.
    Stop erasing when Apocalypse does a bad thing with gaslighting. First it was cherrypicking the instances he did something good to erase all the bad things he did in the past and ignore whenever those examples are bought up as though it's cheating to win an argument about the character now it's extended to titles he's appearing in currently, Excalibur.

    The fact that they are trying to shoehorn things that are not actually taking place into what they are calling "Analysis..", for starters.
    Don't act like these people have no connection to who they were in the recent past or the fact this is blown up in the X-men's face more than once before.

    Uncanny X-men Vol.1 #328. Xavier failed using therapy to rehabilitate Sabretooth, he escaped by tricking Tabitha to throw her projectiles at him and she barely survived until Psylocke showed up and he did this to her.



    House of X#1



    Krkaoa is supposed to have drugs to cure this sort of thing so why didn't why try them on Sabretooth?

    Analysing comics requires actually acknowledging what's going on in the books, not fanon.

    As for this particular component of the overall story being told...

    It makes right around "Zero..." sense to look at a mutant homeland that wasted no time in decisively dealing with what Sabertooth did, and say "I Believe They Are Turing Into The Brotherhood..."

    Never mind that it shows pretty clearly that said homeland is moving in the opposite direction.

    Again, this sort of willingness to ignore what is actually happening in the titles is why folks aren't in any hurry to entertain these tangents or take this sort of "Analysis.." very seriously.
    You've completely ignored what I was saying to ironically go on a tangent. Now I'm curious, since the post you're responding to was about Selene. What do you think of herm before she was on Krakoa?

    Creating a mutant homeland won't come to much with characters like that trying to sabotage the project for their won agendas, they're ticking time bombs waiting to go off. We've had two go off by now, Sabretooth, Mystique is plotting revenge for them not bringing back Destiny, Shaw's secretly murdered Kitty (who saw that coming? Everyone!) and Apocalypse did, as well, except Xavier gave him a pass over putting Rogue into a magic coffin for his mad science project. She killed him in revenge and he woke up here:



    "I'm just so disappointed in you, Apocalypse. Say you're sorry then off you go, it's not like Rogue meant anything to me to punish you for harming her."

    And I'm supposed to believe Xavier hasn't been acting squirrelly?

    Argue what I post in its entirety, don't cherrypick one or two sentences otherwise I'm not going to respond to these outlandish denials and mutant super-villain apologia.

  8. #563
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    ...

    Don't act like these people have no connection to who they were in the recent past or the fact this is blown up in the X-men's face more than once before.

    Uncanny X-men Vol.1 #328. Xavier failed using therapy to rehabilitate Sabretooth, he escaped by tricking Tabitha to throw her projectiles at him and she barely survived until Psylocke showed up and he did this to her.



    House of X#1



    Krkaoa is supposed to have drugs to cure this sort of thing so why didn't why try them on Sabretooth?

    Analysing comics requires actually acknowledging what's going on in the books, not fanon.


    ...
    Which you clearly are not doing.

    To start with, you are trying to throw out that folks "Believe..." that the "X" teams are turning into The Brotherhood.

    You know who would use drugs or mind control to fundamentally change who Sabertooth is?

    The Brotherhood.

    You know who gave him an actual choice, and dealt with him according when he made the wrong choice?

    The "X" teams.

    Again, these oddball trip into the past while almost completely ignoring what is actually going on in the titles in the here and now is why the attempted tangents aren't really being taken seriously.

  9. #564
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Your bias is talking here.
    "They didn't show up = they don't care" is a pretty huge leap to make, and doesn't prove anything per se.
    The only reason you didn't see the rest of the Marvel Universe - Avengers included - react to the X-Men disappearing or do something about the X-Men disappearing is because the X-writers didn't include them in the story, the same way you don't see the X-Men show up in the recent crisis the Avengers had, or the ones faced by whatever other Marvel heroes are facing at the moment.
    Marvel is a shared universe with multiple IPs, you can't expect it to revolve around the X-Men, it's that simple.
    Thats not true. Captain America appeared in Uncanny X-men right after the X-men disappeared. He talks to Scott and all he says is he wishes he had done more and then proceeds to do nothing. I'm going by what was written by the X-writers. They showed them helping in Disassembled to deal with the fires that Nate had started but once the X-men seemingly sacrified their lives to defeat him, Cap wiped his hands of the fallout

  10. #565
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Bucky, Steve and Natasha appeared in Rosencanny and reacted protecting the racist meetings.

    The Champions believed that when they were vandalizing the O5 statue at Worthington Industries it was Dust's fault (although they later realized it wasn't her fault).

  11. #566
    Mighty Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    I'm calling "Citation Needed" on Krakoa having mental health drugs that work on mutants. Thought I'd read everything, but apparently not.

  12. #567
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frobisher View Post
    I'm calling "Citation Needed" on Krakoa having mental health drugs that work on mutants. Thought I'd read everything, but apparently not.
    There is no proof that they have drugs that work on mutants.

    All three medicines are always specified to work in humans, not mutants.

    Why would they even need these medicines? They have healing mutants for infections, resurrection for aging, and telepaths for mental health.

  13. #568
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    There is no proof that they have drugs that work on mutants.

    All three medicines are always specified to work in humans, not mutants.

    Why would they even need these medicines? They have healing mutants for infections, resurrection for aging, and telepaths for mental health.
    And by what we've seen in Hellions, repressing people is not their way of dealing with mental issues at the moment.

  14. #569
    Fantastic Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    .
    Creating a mutant homeland won't come to much with characters like that trying to sabotage the project for their won agendas, they're ticking time bombs waiting to go off. We've had two go off by now, Sabretooth, Mystique is plotting revenge for them not bringing back Destiny, Shaw's secretly murdered Kitty (who saw that coming? Everyone!) and Apocalypse did, as well, except Xavier gave him a pass over putting Rogue into a magic coffin for his mad science project. She killed him in revenge and he woke up here:



    "I'm just so disappointed in you, Apocalypse. Say you're sorry then off you go, it's not like Rogue meant anything to me to punish you for harming her."

    And I'm supposed to believe Xavier hasn't been acting squirrelly?

    Argue what I post in its entirety, don't cherrypick one or two sentences otherwise I'm not going to respond to these outlandish denials and mutant super-villain apologia.
    Y’know i normally skim through Excalibur, but reading those panels again has me seriously questioning Xavier. Apocalypse isn’t even being slick about doing immoral things, but Chuck is just like “Imma act blind cause I got this helmet on.”

  15. #570
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    And by what we've seen in Hellions, repressing people is not their way of dealing with mental issues at the moment.
    But Hellions are extreme cases, they will have methods to deal with mutants with milder pathologies such as anxiety.

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