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  1. #436
    Extraordinary Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    This essentially ^ and everyone should be happy about it since that shows they're still superheroes fighting the bad guys and not just politicians

    ORCHIS is specifically a response to Homo Superior rise in population on Earth, not any other threat.
    Have you ever seen humans use Sentinel for anything other than killing mutants? Aside from the kid who reprogrammed one Avengers Academy. They have giant robots that they could use for when elves, skrulls or whatever invade the earth but no, they are made solely and exclusively to kill mutants.

  2. #437
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    That said, if we are calling things out for what they actually are?

    Let's say we have a diplomatic sit down. Magneto and Apocalypse are at said diplomatic sit down. During the course of said sit down, it becomes pretty clear that an attempt on their lives was going to be made. At the minimum.

    When this whole thing wraps up? Not a single human life lost.

    If you are seriously looking at that and cannot tell who has the moral high ground?
    I fail to see how showing restraint in this one instance clears out anything?
    Yes, Magneto and Apocalypse showed remarkable restraints in that incident and yes, they had the moral high ground in that instance.
    And at the same time Apocalypse is vivisecting Morgan LeFay in his basement after deposing her from her throne while Magneto god complex is out of control. They also enforce a parody of justice to the people living on their island.
    Do they have the moral high ground when it comes to those other instances? No, they do not.
    The simple fact that both of them have the blood of thousands on their hands disqualify them from that - ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    It might be because you've already decided on what you want to see.
    Well, I could say the same from you, if we are at the point of making baseless accusation in this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Never mind that it is a "Peaceful Coexistence..." of a sort.
    They are coexisting as much as a bird outside your window is coexisting with a rock somewhere on Mars.

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Perfect "Can I Borrow A Cup Of Sugar?..." coexistence? Well, no. Humans are still attempting to kill mutant when they come to what should be a diplomatic sit down.
    And, btw, do we acknowledge this was a one-sided attempt from one north american nation to harm the Kraked?
    Or are we pretending Italy, Wakanda, China and India were responsible for it as well? Because you make it sounds like they are with your "Humans".

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    What amounts to a "Peaceful Coexistence..." when said attempt on those lives didn't cost them a number of lives equal to what they intended on taking?
    Well, Krakoa isn't a country where the population is made up of sapiens and mutants.
    It's a country where the population is made up of mutants exclusively.
    Hence why I scoff at the concept of "coexistence" being thrown around when it comes to them.
    It'd be better if people stopped pretending it is one because of that one baby living over there with his mother...

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Yeah, it obviously is.
    To you, certainly.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  3. #438
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Gee, Vee and #30 (that rhymes!) ...at the battlefront fighting the great fight against ignorance, miscomprehension, misinterpretation and headcanoning.

    You've earned your personal Krakoan domiciles (names to be decided) wherever you choose and lifetimes of free drinks at the Green Lagoon.
    My Summer rain. My rooftop in Japan. My quiet in the storm. *cries* Al Ewing is GOD...Praise His name! Uplift Him in song! Glorify His works!

  4. #439
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    If the will of Russia is to put mutants in concentration camps, experiment with them and exterminate them, yes, I perfectly agree to made it null and void.

    I will not cry because racist people are not represented at the UN.
    "You can argue the motives behind it if you want, it doesn't change the nature of the act, nor the gravity of it. It's one thing to do this on a kidnapper who's hidden his next victim somewhere in the wild, another to do so on the representative of another nation, in the midst of an assembly of other représentatives, and for the sole Reason that their country doesn't want to deal with yours."

    In case it wasn't clear the first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    This essentially ^ and everyone should be happy about it since that shows they're still superheroes fighting the bad guys and not just politicians
    I'll let the two of you echo chamber after that, but I wanted to react to the bolded.
    The motives behind their heroics aside, they'd do more good to themselves and the russian mutants by dragging the ones responsibles in front of La Haye, instead of patting themselves for blowing up a cargo with their ovni.
    Dealing with a problem of such a scale needs to have both reactive AND proactive solutions on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    ORCHIS is specifically a response to Homo Superior rise in population on Earth, not any other threat.
    For the time being, it is, yes.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  5. #440
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    I fail to see how showing restraint in this one instance clears out anything?
    Yes, Magneto and Apocalypse showed remarkable restraints in that incident and yes, they had the moral high ground in that instance.
    And at the same time Apocalypse is vivisecting Morgan LeFay in his basement after deposing her from her throne while Magneto god complex is out of control. They also enforce a parody of justice to the people living on their island.
    Do they have the moral high ground when it comes to those other instances? No, they do not.

    The simple fact that both of them have the blood of thousands on their hands disqualify them from that - ever.

    ...
    Looking this over, it would seem that the two lack the moral high ground based on those actions.

    Even a cursory reading of overall human history would uncover that human governments do this(and worse...) on the regular.

    To me? You have a wash(at best...) there while there is an instance where you seem to realize that the diplomats for the mutant homeland clearly had the moral high ground.

    Again, I'm just not seeing where mutants are in some seriously morally deficient position.

  6. #441
    Fantastic Member Icefanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Again, I'm just not seeing where mutants are in some seriously morally deficient position.
    That isn't the point. The X-Men are supposed to be HEROES.

    It used to be what made Marvel different than DC was DC's heroes were idolized, infallible. Marvel's heroes had feet of clay. Somewhere along the way that turned into feet of mud. After the success of books like the Authority, the definition of a comic book 'hero' sadly has increasingly become someone who fights people worse than they are. That's not who the X-Men are supposed to be.

    The X-Men fans have known and loved for decades would not have created a country like this, or even been a part of it. It's why Cyclops surrounded himself with 'reformed' villains like Magneto and Emma Frost while ending up in conflict with many of the other X-Men. It's what led to the Schism.

    Krakoa is not only wrong, the list of X-men who should know that and be fighting against it is LONG.

  7. #442
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icefanatic View Post
    That isn't the point. The X-Men are supposed to be HEROES.

    It used to be what made Marvel different than DC was DC's heroes were idolized, infallible. Marvel's heroes had feet of clay. Somewhere along the way that turned into feet of mud. After the success of books like the Authority, the definition of a comic book 'hero' sadly has increasingly become someone who fights people worse than they are. That's not who the X-Men are supposed to be.

    The X-Men fans have known and loved for decades would not have created a country like this, or even been a part of it. It's why Cyclops surrounded himself with 'reformed' villains like Magneto and Emma Frost while ending up in conflict with many of the other X-Men. It's what led to the Schism.

    Krakoa is not only wrong, the list of X-men who should know that and be fighting against it is LONG.
    Cyclops working with former villians is not what led to Schism. The X-men had long accepted villains into their ranks as members and allies, long before that era. Juggernaut, Mystique, Marrow, Rogue, etc... Magneto and Emma were members before this and it wasnt Scott that brought them into the fold. The X-men did not have an issue working alongside these "villians". The killing and cosigning with kids killing was the impetus for Schism, not the likes of Emma and Magneto being around

    For those saying Krakoa is wrong, what is the alternative? Just before HoX, we arguably came from one of the worst time in X-history. The bulk of the X-men were seemingly killed in Disassembled and no one cared. You didnt see anyone trying to find out where they were or what happened. The world was fine with them dead. The government officials used this as an opportunity to pass a vaccine to remove mutant powers, which itself was unstable and killed many of them. Not to mention the main goal was to eradicate mutantkind completely by preventing the X-gene from even being expressed in young mutants. Mutants were being murdered left and right in Rosenberg's run and no one cared.

    Krakoa works as a beacon of hope for mutantkind as they really need to take care of themselves bc they cant sit around and expect the world to. Its not perfect and we definitely will see some betrayal that may rock it but right now it is better than the previous status quo. As much as people did not like Rosenberg's run it served its purpose in highlighting just how bleak and horrific things got
    Last edited by Havok83; 07-03-2020 at 02:24 PM.

  8. #443
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Not all heroes are written to be Saintly and Divine like Jesus Christ.

    There is no "wrong" or "right" way to write fiction and serialised fiction, even more so.

    There's only what speaks to you and what doesn't.
    Claremont's X-Men to which you are clearly alluding would not have created an Island Sanctuary (though They did settle in the Outback for a few years)
    But...
    This. Is. Not. Claremont's X-men. No matter how desperately you and others wish them to be.
    And...
    Clearly this does not speak to some readers...and that's okies. You can freely admit that you just don't connect with this new status quo for whatever reason(s)

    But to say that this is categorically "wrong" is...well...just plain wrong and non-sensical.
    My Summer rain. My rooftop in Japan. My quiet in the storm. *cries* Al Ewing is GOD...Praise His name! Uplift Him in song! Glorify His works!

  9. #444
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Cyclops working with former villians is not what led to Schism. The X-men had long accepted villains into their ranks as members and allies, long before that era. Juggernaut, Mystique, Marrow, Rogue, etc... Magneto and Emma were members before this and it wasnt Scott that brought them into the fold. The X-men did not have an issue working alongside these "villians". The killing and cosigning with kids killing was the impetus for Schism, not the likes of Emma and Magneto being around

    For those saying Krakoa is wrong, what is the alternative? Just before HoX, we arguably came from one of the worst time in X-history. The bulk of the X-men were seemingly killed in Disassembled and no one cared. You didnt see anyone trying to find out where they were or what happened. The world was fine with them dead. The government officials used this as an opportunity to pass a vaccine to remove mutant powers, which itself was unstable and killed many of them. Not to mention the main goal was to eradicate mutantkind completely by preventing the X-gene from even being expressed in young mutants. Mutants were being murdered left and right in Rosenberg's run and no one cared.

    Krakoa works as a beacon of hope for mutantkind as they really need to take care of themselves bc they cant sit around and expect the world to. Its not perfect and we definitely will see some betrayal that may rock it but right now it is better than the previous status quo. As much as people did not like Rosenberg's run it served its purpose in highlighting just how bleak and horrific things got
    You must admit that this situation 'flattens' the personality of each X-men: it's “Krakoa or the chaos”…
    They barely say anything, they just follow the orders, Xavier has never been so well obeyed since the Silver Age.
    For a character to be a hero, he/she must have some freedom and follow his/her heart.
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  10. #445
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    You must admit that this situation 'flattens' the personality of each X-men: it's “Krakoa or the chaos”…
    They barely say anything, they just follow the orders, Xavier has never been so well obeyed since the Silver Age.
    For a character to be a hero, he/she must have some freedom and follow his/her heart.
    How do you know they arent following their heart? There's been almost 60 years worth of stories highlighting different variations of Xavier's dream and none of that has ever worked. This is something new. Its radical and different but none of the other methods worked. They've been hunted, murdered, sterilized, decimated.... And we know that the opposition is still trying to do all of this as Orchis is plotting. The Krakoa resurrection protocols though make that all moot as its a way to get around that, while growing their population up from the genocide they constantly have to thwart off. Besides not every mutant on arth lives on Krakoa. The invitation has been extended to all but not all have accepted it so we do know that there are those that have chosen to not buy into it for whatever reason

  11. #446
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    How do you know they arent following their heart? There's been almost 60 years worth of stories highlighting different variations of Xavier's dream and none of that has ever worked. This is something new. Its radical and different but none of the other methods worked. They've been hunted, murdered, sterilized, decimated.... And we know that the opposition is still trying to do all of this as Orchis is plotting. The Krakoa resurrection protocols though make that all moot as its a way to get around that, while growing their population up from the genocide they constantly have to thwart off. Besides not every mutant on arth lives on Krakoa. The invitation has been extended to all but not all have accepted it so we do know that there are those that have chosen to not buy into it for whatever reason
    You said yourself that the “Krakoa solution” was born out of pragmatism…
    It remains that it wasn't what the X-men used to want.
    Fine, they don't have choice, it's that or nothing better. It doesn't look like a “dream come true” to me.
    It's strange to me that all the X-men are satisfied with that and no one expresses a regret about they had to do (expect Xavier himself).
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  12. #447
    Mighty Member houndsofluv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    It doesn't look like a “dream come true” to me.
    It's strange to me that all the X-men are satisfied with that and no one expresses a regret about they had to do (expect Xavier himself).
    friends and loved ones are being brought back to life .. can you blame them for letting any regrets slide for a minute?

  13. #448
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    You said yourself that the “Krakoa solution” was born out of pragmatism…
    It remains that it wasn't what the X-men used to want.
    Fine, they don't have choice, it's that or nothing better. It doesn't look like a “dream come true” to me.
    It's strange to me that all the X-men are satisfied with that and no one expresses a regret about they had to do (expect Xavier himself).
    well there was a time jump in between Rosenberg's run and HoX, so the skepticism would have arose there when Xavier revealed himself and the plan. Hickman skipped over that and what it took for X to convince them bc he needed to get the ball running on the current status quo. With that said, we have already seen hints of cracks so not everyone is a perfect mindless follower

  14. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    well there was a time jump in between Rosenberg's run and HoX, so the skepticism would have arose there when Xavier revealed himself and the plan. Hickman skipped over that and what it took for X to convince them bc he needed to get the ball running on the current status quo. With that said, we have already seen hints of cracks so not everyone is a perfect mindless follower
    The fact that the whole Krakoa thing and Moira X were simply slapped into the X-men continuity makes me suspect there could have never been any convincing done at all. Everyone just woke up with Krakoa being a thing and being totaly sure they agreed to be there and go through with everything.

    A "magic" super island that gives you everything you need. Your founder figure back as leader, with said super island fully operational. Super drugs made by said island that will be a perfect leverage for the rest of the world. A mutant based copy manufactory that brings everyone you care back from the dead and repowers former mutants. Even a super evil enemy organization to fight against.

    Why question this brave new world, when you are sure it was there allready yesterday?

    To quote Inception: " Let me ask you a question, you, you never really remember the beginning of a dream do you?"

    Never the less what ever the convincing was done off screen and resulted in them acting like they do now via a reasonable explanation or it was all willed into reality by some ominous force (A Dominion, the Black Hole gods, Mister Immortal trying to turn everyone into Homo Supremes...). Many of the X-men are currently acting in a way that for some of us feels like a sudden shift in personality. To the point where they feel off.

    So one has to wonder how they will react with having acted, accepted and done all this once it's over, if it all turns out for naught or even wrong?
    How to still follow the dream when even this extreme attempt has failed?

    Because while i don't want to rain on anyone's parade, this direction/story won't last. Either via the illusion of change not allowing any results to be achieved, the upcomming Marvel based X-men movies causing the comics to change according to them, or because everything is rigged to blow up by Hickman's design at the end (this one i think most likely).

    Well except mutants being back in the millions perhaps. That could be a ray of sunshine at the end i guess.
    Last edited by Grunty; 07-03-2020 at 04:43 PM.

  15. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    well there was a time jump in between Rosenberg's run and HoX, so the skepticism would have arose there when Xavier revealed himself and the plan. Hickman skipped over that and what it took for X to convince them bc he needed to get the ball running on the current status quo. With that said, we have already seen hints of cracks so not everyone is a perfect mindless follower
    Except it's a really minor reaction, nobody's planning a coup - except for Mystique. They get sad and brood, not do anything about the status quo.

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