What of Xavier's Dream?

[Lucyinthesky]

I don`t think they get sad, they just say what they don`t agree with which has always happened in the X-men, they don`t need to plan a coup when they, the X-men, don`t really have big disagreetments and are an active and big part of how the goverment is ran on Krakoa. I think they are also getting used to a new role, because they used to be a super hero group not a part of the ruling body of a goverment.

[houndsofluv]

Except it's a really minor reaction, nobody's planning a coup - except for Mystique. They get sad and brood, not do anything about the status quo.

Krakoa is a "greater good" situation. We've seen characters who agree with it emphatically (Storm, Cyclops, etc. ), we've seen characters who are uncomfortable with it but accept it bc they still believe its for a purpose bigger than themselves (Wolverine, Polaris, Kwannon, etc.) and we've seen a small section of the pop. actively conspiring against it (Shaw, Mystique, maybe others im missing.. Omega Red?)

realistically there wouldn't be many active conspirers so I'd say what we've seen is more or less representative

[Steel Inquisitor]

Krakoa is a "greater good" situation.

There are large gaps in how Krakoa was founded, and we won't know the details for years so don't assume everything you see is what you're getting. And what we're getting is deeply problematic in itself.

We've seen characters who agree with it emphatically (Storm, Cyclops, etc. ), we've seen characters who are uncomfortable with it but accept it bc they still believe its for a purpose bigger than themselves (Wolverine, Polaris, Kwannon, etc.) and we've seen a small section of the pop. actively conspiring against it (Shaw, Mystique, maybe others im missing.. Omega Red?)

Not my argument, my point is that they're far too easy going over the everything. It's not about acknowledging what the status quo is.

realistically there wouldn't be many active conspirers so I'd say what we've seen is more or less representative

Realistically they should have more people conspiring against what's going on, and realistically the X-men are big into education and justice, yet they're not doing this in Krakoa. Don't assume just assume because you like the status quo that everything is fine.

[houndsofluv]

There are large gaps in how Krakoa was founded, and we won't know the details for years so don't assume everything you see is what you're getting. And what we're getting is deeply problematic in itself.



Not my argument, my point is that they're far too easy going over the everything. It's not about acknowledging what the status quo is.



Realistically they should have more people conspiring against what's going on, and realistically the X-men are big into education and justice, yet they're not doing this in Krakoa. Don't assume just assume because you like the status quo that everything is fine.

A nation where you and your loved ones are free of genocides (plural mind you lol) that you've suffered for years and free of death itself - this is what I mean by the greater good. I'm not sweeping the downsides under the rug, I'm acknowledging that these downsides are significantly outweighed in the moment to a majority of these characters . taking this time to reconnect with the until recently dead, to make up for lost time , to cherish life without the threat of death and persecution - in the early days of Krakoa does it not make sense that this would take precedence to its inhabitants?

by using "realistically" I'm not implying that the thought of rebelling against krakoa is out of the question because its perfect and that's that - I mean it is literally unrealistic to assume a vast majority of citizens will actively conspire to bring about the destruction of a nation. Like, in terms of probability . How many average joes are doing this on the day to day?

[Steel Inquisitor]

A nation where you and your loved ones are free of genocides (plural mind you lol) that you've suffered for years and free of death itself - this is what I mean by the greater good.

Our disagreement isn't over that, and frankly its getting tiresome to have this regurgitated like anyone who disagrees simply can't grasp what's going on. And it's not like mutants aren't capable of committing genocide on their own, like Apocalypse and Selene. Mutants who dish out suffering to the oppressed, not be on the other end of it.

I'm not sweeping the downsides under the rug, I'm acknowledging that these downsides are significantly outweighed in the moment to a majority of these characters.

Except does dismiss how dangerous the environment of Krakoa is, the downsides include mutants who are known for large scale attacks on humans and mutants alike and the latter keeps being ignored isn't compelling. "That's X, he killed my girlfriend in 2010, maybe we can go have a beer with X on Wednesday night" is something that's occurring on Krakoa. This erasure of how dangerous the super-villains are is, however, fascinating in it assumes they're all harmless and that what they did before Krakoa is not in context with their relationships or characters actions going forward when we know this isn't true. In fact, many of them are more dangerous than people like Bastian. Bastian can't just make a bomb to genocide an entire race in an afternoon, Apocalypse has done this before. Being a mutant in itself will not protect other mutants when the numerous super-villains decide play time is over and they want to kill other mutants for their plans to do X and now all these innocent mutants are within their reach. Another downside is that now these villains have more access to mutants for recruitment in their organisations so when they do act they'll have more followers than they did before. And it's not like some of these mutants, and others like Sinister, aren't ok with killing off large mutant populations to serve their own ends. Selene could do it just because she needs to sacrifice souls for her latest spell. It's not like these characters can't do this under the X-men's noses without them discovering it before it's too late. These villain pose just as big a threat to mutants as the Purifiers do, they're the literal fox in the henhouse.

taking this time to reconnect with the until recently dead, to make up for lost time , to cherish life without the threat of death and persecution - in the early days of Krakoa does it not make sense that this would take precedence to its inhabitants?

That only makes sense if they don't know who any of the major figures in Krakoa's government is, when nearly everyone should be on their radar or they know someone who'd fill in the details. The dead include super-villains, too. The more of them on the island the more at risk the other mutants are.

by using "realistically" I'm not implying that the thought of rebelling against krakoa is out of the question because its perfect and that's that - I mean it is literally unrealistic to assume a vast majority of citizens will actively conspire to bring about the destruction of a nation. Like, in terms of probability .

This assumes that the majority of their citizens don't care about things like education or having a court system, realistically not having those in place would make the Quiet Council's, and the Great Captains, decisions under heavy scrutiny because that affects their lives. I don't expect Hickman to go into this too much, however, because it all breaks down when looked at too closely and it's still a comic book. Then again Hickman is a great writer who thinks about everything so this may be a clue that Something Is Wrong, as well.

How many average joes are doing this on the day to day?

They'll follow the Major Stars, hero or villain, in whatever they do since average mutants don't get that sort of agency in X-men comics.

[numberthirty]

Our disagreement isn't over that, and frankly its getting tiresome to have this regurgitated like anyone who disagrees simply can't grasp what's going on. And it's not like mutants aren't capable of committing genocide on their own, like Apocalypse and Selene. Mutants who dish out suffering to the oppressed, not be on the other end of it.

...

The Apocalypse who left his first four horsemen behind in an act that saves the entirety of the planet right along with mutants.

Is that the Apocalpse that we are talking about?

Or, is it the Apocalypse who hasn't really posed much of a threat to baseline humanity since coming to the mutant homeland?

Is that the Apocalypse we are talking about?

[Frobisher]

Apocalypse also saved the world from a Brood invasion, doubtless among many other things.

[Glio]

"All mutants agree on everything in Krakoa as if they have been brainwashed" is false and I am tired of repeating over and over again all the occasions when Cyclops, Gambit, Wolverine, Rogue, Jean, Nightcrawler, Fallen Angels and others have shown skepticism.

Unless there is a Civil War or a Schism you will not be happy because we are used to superheroes being immature children who resort to violence to solve all their discussions.

[Steel Inquisitor]

"All mutants agree on everything in Krakoa as if they have been brainwashed" is false and I am tired of repeating over and over again all the occasions when Cyclops, Gambit, Wolverine, Rogue, Jean, Nightcrawler, Fallen Angels and others have shown skepticism.

It may be speculation but it's not anymore false than your speculation that everything is as they say it is. It's a blank slate, who knows what happened in that time frame?

Skepticism in these circumstances is ridiculous, these are super-heroes and a smart assassin, who in the past weren't afraid to get their hands dirty when super-villainous actions are afoot. The time for skepticism is long over.

Unless there is a Civil War or a Schism you will not be happy because we are used to superheroes being immature children who resort to violence to solve all their discussions.

The civil war's coming, don't you worry but we'll have to wait for Act 2 to kick in before seeing any real moves in the plot. This isn't me "being happy" this is about acknowledging the gaps in Krakao and that it's built on a house of cards that we don't know everything about. And it's Hickman.

They're super-heroes violence is how they greet each other and it's not like Krakoa isn't ok with that sort of behaviour. They have their own Fight Club's and various teams that dole out violence on behalf of the state!

As for the others:

Apocalypse is a hero now? All he has to do is save the world or do nice things every once a while and everything the he's done in the past is forgotten? Was it some other Apocalypse who possessed Cyclops, transformed Warren into Archangel and destroyed Cable's future? Do you think Victor von Doom's a hero now? It's not like he can't be handsome, too.



This fawning over Apocalypse is so silly. Maybe you've forgotten who he really is when he's not throwing X-men into magic coffins.

[Alan2099]

Or, is it the Apocalypse who hasn't really posed much of a threat to baseline humanity since coming to the mutant homeland?

So, how often does he have to murder people before you can acknowledge he's not a nice person?

...

I'm suddenly picturing a sign in his office saying something like "16 Days Since last attempted genocide."

[numberthirty]

It may be speculation but it's not anymore false than your speculation that everything is as they say it is. It's a blank slate, who knows what happened in that time frame?

...

No "May Be..."

Unless you have proof(heck, anything like a bit of evidence...) that it is happening, then it actually is speculation.

No "May Be..."

[numberthirty]

...

This fawning over Apocalypse is so silly. Maybe you've forgotten who he really is when he's not throwing X-men into magic coffins.

...

No one has forgotten who he is.

He is the guy who has saved the world on at least a few occasions that we know of.

[Zelena]

He should have kept at least a mask… he's prettier with them.

It's funny that comic authors seem to use again and again the same characters but not really bother to take into account what they have really done.
Like dolls kept in a box…

[Glio]

I'm done with wasting my time with Steel Inquisitor's headcanon.

[Devaishwarya]

We each have our path...however long the journey takes.