What of Xavier's Dream?

[Glio]

And so what? Humans were right in killing countless mutants because Apocalypse and a few others were bad? And Xavier shouldn't care about dead mutants or have a change of mind in seeing his students die?

Keep in mind that Purifiers, Church of Humanity, General Callahan and such just had plain hate for mutants and probably didn't give two fs or knew about Apocalypse.

This doesn't make sense and it sounds a lot like a mutant crimes negationist take.



^ this.

Then they would just have to wait patiently for all of humanity to self-destruct due to climate change minus Wakanda, as Bruce Banner predicted, and return to occupy the planet if they are homesick.

But they don't want that.

[Veitha]

Then they would just have to wait patiently for all of humanity to self-destruct due to climate change minus Wakanda, as Bruce Banner predicted, and return to occupy the planet if they are homesick.

But they don't want that.

X-Force also showed us that they're letting humans work on Krakoan tech such as clean batteries, so they're probably going to help them with climate change too.

[People Of The Earth]

If they did not want to coexist with humans they could, easily, terraform all Mars with Krakoa and leave humans to their fate without their medicines.

That's a logical fallacy right there but I think you know it.
There's a ton of ways for mutants to not actually coexist with sapiens without them leaving the planet, and isolating themselves on a Pacific island is one of them.
Furthermore, trading and coexistence are two different things, one doesn't infer the other - even North Korea has trade partners after all.

[People Of The Earth]

And so what? Humans were right in killing countless mutants because Apocalypse and a few others were bad?

That's not what s/he said.

And Xavier shouldn't care about dead mutants or have a change of mind in seeing his students die?

Nor that.

Keep in mind that Purifiers, Church of Humanity, General Callahan and such just had plain hate for mutants and probably didn't give two fs or knew about Apocalypse.

True, and the same can be said from mutants extremists as well. Extremism doesn't need much excuse to express itself, possibly violently.

This doesn't make sense and it sounds a lot like a mutant crimes negationist take.

It would if it was Something s/he said, which, from the post you actually quoted, wasn't the case.

^ this.

[Steel Inquisitor]

And so what? Humans were right in killing countless mutants because Apocalypse and a few others were bad? And Xavier shouldn't care about dead mutants or have a change of mind in seeing his students die?

Don't move the goal posts, and twisting any condemnation of monsters like Apocalypse as if that means agreeing with the mutant bigots. You think what he did to Warren was right? Or genociding the human race? Apocalypse has been killing humans and other races, like the Eternals, long before the Purifiers were formed. "Bad" would be an improvement for many of the villains we're talking about, they're not college pranksters from an 80's film. The lack of concern for the damage to fulfilling Xavier's dram is startling. How dare Xavier interfere with their missions to kill people, including mutants. These people kill many of those dead mutants, a concern which is lacking in your response. You know what would help stopping humans kill more mutants? To get more humans on side, instead of having to protect them for super-villains who want to make them into laboratory experiments, serial killer victims, collateral damage to conquer the world or because they were bored and don't consider human people. But no, they're the real victims here. Will no-one think of the super-villains?

Keep in mind that Purifiers, Church of Humanity, General Callahan and such just had plain hate for mutants and probably didn't give two fs or knew about Apocalypse.

This isn't the gotcha you think it is. Those tactics help them, which they'd exploit. It's everyone else that should be reached out to, rather than generalising humans as though those groups speak for every human on Earth.

This doesn't make sense and it sounds a lot like a mutant crimes negationist take.

You don't think ordinary humans would care about their species and countries being attacked on large and small scale, continuously, by mutant super-villains? Including genocide? That this wouldn't hurt human/mutant relations? How does allow these mutants killing humans, and mutants, help Xavier achieve his dream? I guess killing off all the humans to have peace on Earth may be "peace," except this is going to continue with other species like Inhumans, Lava Men, Atlanteans.

^ this.

We'll allow you to live on the same planet as us, don't make us alter the deal any further. *glances at Apocalypse* You know what he's capable of, puny human.

[Veitha]

No one said that Apocalypse is a good person. What I've said countless times is why he and other villains are on the island, but you're straight up ignoring it and making yet another list of what Apocalypse had done in the past. There's a reason why the villains are there, and building a nation includes comprise and stepping into grey areas.

Lol at getting more humans on their side. What do you think they have done all these years prior to Krakoa? They've been trying hard to have good relationships buy it always ended up with explosions and murders and hate crimes towards mutants.

There's a clear difference between a hate/racial crime and a supervillain crime. Selene, Sinister and Shaw are just bad people like Le Fay, Doom or any human villain, they're just looking to reach their own goals and don't care who stands in their way. Humans hating mutants because Selene has done something bad in a world with Le Fay are... Well, racists. It's like people hating Muslims because of terrorism.

Purifiers, Church of Humanity or ORCHIS or even the US government with Sentinels specifically target mutants because they're mutants, regardless of them being evil or dangerous or not.

The rest is again your headcanon. Krakoa has done nothing bad towards humanity. They've just taken a more proactive stance after years of racism and murder but oh damn they're using Sinister they must be worse than Purifiers and we shall not look into the reasons why they're using Sinister.

[Glio]

I never saw a human ally of the mutants stop a Purifier. Not even try. We've never seen a human government say, "Hey, maybe we should stop making Sentinel."

The X-Men have had to deal with both evil mutants and evil humans. Humans have never dealt with their own racists. The FBI has never raided an anti-mutant association. Hell, Captain America protected the political acts of people calling for mutant genocides in Rosencanny because "they are americans too".

The mutants had no choice but to leave the United States.

[People Of The Earth]

No one said that Apocalypse is a good person. What I've said countless times is why he and other villains are on the island, but you're straight up ignoring it and making yet another list of what Apocalypse had done in the past. There's a reason why the villains are there, and building a nation includes comprise and stepping into grey areas.

Surely you can realize the compromises and stepping into grey areas you are comfortable with and agreeing with, are not comfortable and agreeable to everyone?
There's Nothing wrong for Calling out that kind of thing for what it is.
Just saying.

Lol at getting more humans on their side. What do you think they have done all these years prior to Krakoa? They've been trying hard to have good relationships buy it always ended up with explosions and murders and hate crimes towards mutants.

Not Always.

There's a clear difference between a hate/racial crime and a supervillain crime. Selene, Sinister and Shaw are just bad people like Le Fay, Doom or any human villain, they're just looking to reach their own goals and don't care who stands in their way. Humans hating mutants because Selene has done something bad in a world with Le Fay are... Well, racists. It's like people hating Muslims because of terrorism.

You are assuming they wouldn't hate Le Fay either, which is frankly absurd.
No one normal likes terrorists, or killers, or criminals in general.
Le Fay levelled Rome a few years ago with a legion of undead IIRC, how do you bet she's perceived by the italians other there?
Are the Romans hating her for what she did to be labelled mysoginistic?
Of course not.
Also, you are generalizing here.
I'm sorry but not everyone Always recover from the crimes and losses they have been trough.
You can know intellectually Something and still be unable to act physically upon it. It doesn't mean you are a bad person for it, it means you need time to heal from the trauma or shock you suffered.
You are painstakingly blind to that if you think humans hating mutants because Selene has done Something bad in a world where Le Fay exists are all racists. Again, big generalization.

Purifiers, Church of Humanity or ORCHIS or even the US government with Sentinels specifically target mutants because they're mutants, regardless of them being evil or dangerous or not.

That's not true in the case of the US government, at the very least they have a responsibility toward the well-being of all of their citizens and depending with the eras and writers, that included the american mutants as well.
Orchis is hopping on the same train than Magneto has been riding for years, I would argue they would move against any groups of Humanity threatening Sapienkind, that's the mutants today, maybe tomorrow it'll be the atlanteans for example.
Complaining about Purifiers and Church of Humanity who are extremist groups to act like extremists is nonsensical however.

The rest is again your headcanon. Krakoa has done nothing bad towards humanity.

That's untrue.
They brainwashed a russian diplomat in the UN to get what they wanted, that's the very first bad thing they did toward the rest of humanity.

They've just taken a more proactive stance after years of racism and murder but oh damn they're using Sinister they must be worse than Purifiers and we shall not look into the reasons why they're using Sinister.

They can use Sinister, or Selene, or Apocalypse if they want.
They Simply Don't get to pretend holding the moral high ground as a result.
How is that hard to understand?

[Glio]

If it seems wrong to you that the X-Men use telepathy for their purposes and you miss the Xavier of the old comics, you are going to discover an unpleasant surprise.

[Veitha]

I didn't assume they wouldn't hate Le Fay, I called out Steel Inquisitor for saying that humans hate mutants because of mutant villains, saying that there's also tons of human villains in comics and hating mutants because of mutant villains is racist. Exactly like hating women because of Le Fay.

The US government in the MCU has created Sentinels and done horrible things to mutants, not just the dangerous ones. Just look at what Callahan has done recently to mutants, including torture, experimentation and murder to erase them from the face of the American soil. A few dangerous individuals give the rights to a government to enslave, racially profile, kill and persecute a minority?

And are you defending ORCHIS? They made experiments on mutant kids. That's not what I would call a safety organization that just worries about humans. They want to eradicate them.

That same Russian diplomat is working with Verendi and Russia has been killing and incarcerating mutants. They were against Krakoa because they're anti-mutants and they were the only vote against them. It was sketchy? Yes. Do superheroes do sketchy things sometimes for the greater good? Yes. And it wasn't a crime against humanity, that's reaching.

No one is claiming any higher ground, but some people are labelling the X-Men as villains while that's not true and it mostly comes from a personal perception and headcanon.

[numberthirty]

Surely you can realize the compromises and stepping into grey areas you are comfortable with and agreeing with, are not comfortable and agreeable to everyone?
There's Nothing wrong for Calling out that kind of thing for what it is.
Just saying.

...


They can use Sinister, or Selene, or Apocalypse if they want.
They Simply Don't get to pretend holding the moral high ground as a result.
How is that hard to understand?

That said, if we are calling things out for what they actually are?

Let's say we have a diplomatic sit down. Magneto and Apocalypse are at said diplomatic sit down. During the course of said sit down, it becomes pretty clear that an attempt on their lives was going to be made. At the minimum.

When this whole thing wraps up? Not a single human life lost.

If you are seriously looking at that and cannot tell who has the moral high ground?

It might be because you've already decided on what you want to see.

Never mind that it is a "Peaceful Coexistence..." of a sort. Perfect "Can I Borrow A Cup Of Sugar?..." coexistence? Well, no. Humans are still attempting to kill mutant when they come to what should be a diplomatic sit down.

What amounts to a "Peaceful Coexistence..." when said attempt on those lives didn't cost them a number of lives equal to what they intended on taking?

Yeah, it obviously is.

[Steel Inquisitor]

No one said that Apocalypse is a good person. What I've said countless times is why he and other villains are on the island, but you're straight up ignoring it and making yet another list of what Apocalypse had done in the past. There's a reason why the villains are there, and building a nation includes comprise and stepping into grey areas.

Your first thought when I bought up how humans would be turned off by mutant super-villains killing them was that all humans were right about killing all mutants for what the mutant super-villains did and completely avoided the fact these very same mutants kill other mutants. I am taking that as a defence of mutants like Apocalypse because that's what it is, as well as the denial that crimes like that don't impact how humanity would view mutants like him or hurt mutants as a whole can't afford him trying to genocide humanity not because of what they do to humanity but to protect his playthings. Only he's allowed to harm mutants, nobody else. Stop moving the goal posts, we're talking about how super-villains mutant hurt Xavier's dream, not what they're doing on Krakoa. Everyone knows why they're there and that isn't an excuse to pat Apocalypse on the back for killing Xavier's dream of peace between species.

Lol at getting more humans on their side. What do you think they have done all these years prior to Krakoa? They've been trying hard to have good relationships buy it always ended up with explosions and murders and hate crimes towards mutants.

Peace between two groups requires both of them to support it. I went into detail about that, which is ignored. And ignoring big reasons why such activities have failed, like the mutant super-villains.

There's a clear difference between a hate/racial crime and a supervillain crime.

There's a whole lot more variety in what mutant super-villains do then that and many of the powerful ones are the ones oppressing anyone they can get their hands on, humans or mutant. They're not picky with who they oppress as long as they are the ones doing the oppressing.

Selene, Sinister and Shaw are just bad people like Le Fay, Doom or any human villain, they're just looking to reach their own goals and don't care who stands in their way.

Exactly, so why are you defending those mutants? And Sinister. The man who oppressing the poor and marginalised since he was a human.

Humans hating mutants because Selene has done something bad in a world with Le Fay are... Well, racists.

That's incredibly simplified, implying that no human should feel bad when she tried to murder them. Le Faye isn't going to harm the image of the species she is with her antics, Selene's will and she just doesn't care.

It's like people hating Muslims because of terrorism.

This topic is not 1=1 with Muslims in the real world.

Purifiers, Church of Humanity or ORCHIS or even the US government with Sentinels specifically target mutants because they're mutants, regardless of them being evil or dangerous or not.

And not a word of complaint when these mutant super-villains do the same to their own kind for reasons like because it's fun, like Sabretooth. Those are not magic words to win an argument, it highlights the hypocrisy when mutants kill humans.

The rest is again your headcanon. Krakoa has done nothing bad towards humanity. They've just taken a more proactive stance after years of racism and murder but oh damn they're using Sinister they must be worse than Purifiers and we shall not look into the reasons why they're using Sinister.

Krkaoa's been intimidating humanity from day one, giving ultimatums and intimidating them into compliance with their big guns who break nations in their sleep, and creating a society which prizes mutants as gods. We know the reason they're using Sinister, and they endorse his past acts by giving him a pass for it. It's incredibly out of character for the X-men not to be terribly upset by his presence.

Classic intimidation, that's why they bought him there for. He had no business being there, being on the Quiet Council or not.



Murder and racism are bad when anyone does it, it's not limited to being bad for humans.

I didn't assume they wouldn't hate Le Fay, I called out Steel Inquisitor for saying that humans hate mutants because of mutant villains, saying that there's also tons of human villains in comics and hating mutants because of mutant villains is racist. Exactly like hating women because of Le Fay.

Which is true, and you continue to ignore the fact them doing vile acts hurts mutant kind. As if they're aiding Xavier with his dream of peace., rather than making him climb a bigger mountain than he had.

The US government in the MCU has created Sentinels and done horrible things to mutants, not just the dangerous ones. Just look at what Callahan has done recently to mutants, including torture, experimentation and murder to erase them from the face of the American soil. A few dangerous individuals give the rights to a government to enslave, racially profile, kill and persecute a minority?

And are you defending ORCHIS? They made experiments on mutant kids. That's not what I would call a safety organization that just worries about humans. They want to eradicate them.

That same Russian diplomat is working with Verendi and Russia has been killing and incarcerating mutants. They were against Krakoa because they're anti-mutants and they were the only vote against them. It was sketchy? Yes. Do superheroes do sketchy things sometimes for the greater good? Yes. And it wasn't a crime against humanity, that's reaching.

Correct, now why aren't you just as angry about the mutant super-villains? It's not like Apocalypse was ever hiding the fact he wants to wipe out humanity.

No one is claiming any higher ground, but some people are labelling the X-Men as villains while that's not true and it mostly comes from a personal perception and headcanon.

Sure you are, and I wasn't talking about the X-men I was just talking about the mutant super-villains before they got Krakoa. Please, specify what passages I wrote which are perception and head canon.

[People Of The Earth]

If it seems wrong to you that the X-Men use telepathy for their purposes and you miss the Xavier of the old comics, you are going to discover an unpleasant surprise.

Diplomacy noun

di·​plo·​ma·​cy | \ də-ˈplō-mə-sē
\
Definition of diplomacy
1: the art and practice of conducting negotiations between nations
2: skill in handling affairs without arousing hostility

source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diplomacy

I'll let you dwell on that.

I didn't assume they wouldn't hate Le Fay, I called out Steel Inquisitor for saying that humans hate mutants because of mutant villains, saying that there's also tons of human villains in comics and hating mutants because of mutant villains is racist. Exactly like hating women because of Le Fay.

Again, that's a broad streak of painting you are applying to sapiens, regardless of it fits them or not.
It's not ALWAYS racism being at play countrary to what you are supporting.
As I said earlier, people need time to overcome trauma or shock and having your life ripped apart because of being a collateral damage from a mutant power display will cause exactly that.

The US government in the MCU has created Sentinels and done horrible things to mutants, not just the dangerous ones. Just look at what Callahan has done recently to mutants, including torture, experimentation and murder to erase them from the face of the American soil. A few dangerous individuals give the rights to a government to enslave, racially profile, kill and persecute a minority?

And as I said earlier, depending on the writers and their runs, the US government will collaborate and work with mutants in order to protect them and their citizens. You can choose to ignore that part of the MU history, it doesn't make it any less true.
And the Sentinels in themselves are just Tools to be programmed and used, it falls on the ones using them to do it properly.
The X-Men themselves used Sentinels in several instances to do their bidding.

And are you defending ORCHIS? They made experiments on mutant kids. That's not what I would call a safety organization that just worries about humans. They want to eradicate them.

If you actually read my comment, you'd have realized I just pointed out how Orchis is a pro-sapiens organization, above all else. They Don't have it out against mutants per se in the sense that, any group of humans who would be in a position to dominate the world over the sapiens would be target to their persecution.
Be it inhumans, atlanteans or whatever other subgroups of Humanity there is on 616-Earth.
The mutants are their target because they are the subgroup with the most potential to dominate the planet in the décades to come in-universe.

That same Russian diplomat is working with Verendi and Russia has been killing and incarcerating mutants. They were against Krakoa because they're anti-mutants and they were the only vote against them.

So? Their representative deserved to be abused telepathically as a result? The will of their country made null and void? That's your justification?
What Emma did, and what Xavier allowed to happen, was pathetic.
To be respected one need to be respectable, what Emma did at the UN was both disgraceful ethically but also harmful to her own country legally speaking.

It was sketchy? Yes.

No need for you to minimize and try to low-ball what Emma did: it was abusive.
And exactly the Reason why some people are concerned with mutants in the first place: to be subject of said abuse without any possibility to do Something about it.

Do superheroes do sketchy things sometimes for the greater good? Yes.

You can argue the motives behind it if you want, it doesn't change the nature of the act, nor the gravity of it. It's one thing to do this on a kidnapper who's hidden his next victim somewhere in the wild, another to do so on the representative of another nation, in the midst of an assembly of other représentatives, and for the sole Reason that their country doesn't want to deal with yours.

And it wasn't a crime against humanity, that's reaching.

It was a breach of trust between Krakoa and the international Community, and if it where to be known, the fallout for them would be catastrophic. The UN and its constituants have been abused.

No one is claiming any higher ground, but some people are labelling the X-Men as villains while that's not true and it mostly comes from a personal perception and headcanon.

Oh, there are plenty claiming moral superiority in this very thread, no need to low-ball THAT either… The self-righteousness oozing from some posts is pretty impressive.
As for the X-Men, they have drifted away from what they used to embody - whether it is rightfully so or not is irrelevant to that fact. The way I see it, some people Don't like when it's highlighted, eventhough they are acknowledging themselves the changes in methods and philosophy observed here.
Why is that?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd rather the X-Men had shed away their name to take a new one, the same way they shed away Xavier's old dream and methods, to follow a different one on a new path.

[Glio]

If the will of Russia is to put mutants in concentration camps, experiment with them and exterminate them, yes, I perfectly agree to made it null and void.

I will not cry because racist people are not represented at the UN.

[Veitha]

If the will of Russia is to put mutants in concentration camps, experiment with them and exterminate them, yes, I perfectly agree to made it null and void.

I will not cry because racist people are not represented at the UN.

This essentially ^ and everyone should be happy about it since that shows they're still superheroes fighting the bad guys and not just politicians

ORCHIS is specifically a response to Homo Superior rise in population on Earth, not any other threat.