What of Xavier's Dream?

[lemonpeace]

The Carnation Revolution in Portugal in 1974?

I'm hella rusty on my european history (european history never really did it for me) so I am mainly working with the google as my supporting evidence, but iirc while the Carnation Revolution was a remarkably unusual demonstration of a largely peaceful transition of power the protest didn't result in the overthrow. the actual military coup had already begun and the incumbent government already relented by the time the civilian protests began. also it was not the first or only coup by the MFA, it took multiple attempts (not just from the MFA) and years of build up frustration with the powers that be to accomplish that ultimate goal. even then there was still blood spilled, astonishingly LESS blood than your usual military overthrow (only 4 killed and 45 injured civilian casualties according to google) but regardless, violence alway tends to find revolution. the Carnation event was a celebration of the fall of fascism, it was not the action that removed if, that was the military coup. the Portuguese government didn't just up and stop being dictatorial because of peaceful protest, it was an overwhelmingly successful military coup that changed the government. point being, one day of peaceful protest didn't change Portugal, that's just the mythology like the American dream.

so my question is, are you advocating for a militant mutant coup of human society to make changes from the top down? because if that's what you are proposing they do then I guess I'm fine with the X-Men moving out of Krakoa back to their usual humanitarian efforts back at the Xavier Institute. although, I don't see them reaching their goal without humans killed some more of their brethren and children. oh well, you know what they say about eggs and omelettes.

[Steel Inquisitor]

And the cartels thing is.. really? If you know you could save children's lives working with cartels you wouldn't do it?

Stop conflating the cartels as if they're Robin Hood and that Krakoa's doing good things relies on their partnership. Krakoa is filled with very smart people if they bothered they'd come up with alternatives that don't compromise themselves further. The fact Krakoa does ally themselves with the cartels isn't a good reason to think that they're right. Did you see how Shaw got the contract for the cartels? He made sure the rivals killed each other off because one cartel killed mutants. That's what cartels do, they murder people. They're not heroes.

Doing the "moral" thing is better than helping people out of gulags or stopping kid soldiers?

Kraka is a nation full of Omegas and numerous veteran soldiers with super powers. The cartels are simply distributors for the drugs in the underworld, they don't need them to do that.

If morals aren't a priority how does Krakoa have any moral high ground on any other nation?

And you make it suound as if they are smuggling cocaine, it's pharmaceutical products that could even more save lives. And they have the cartels under a tight grip.

It's not the drugs which is why this is bad, the cartels don't stop being cartels because Krakoa is using them. If Krakoa allies themselves with HYDRA will you defend that, too?

[Zelena]

I'm hella rusty on my european history (european history never really did it for me) so I am mainly working with the google as my supporting evidence, but iirc while the Carnation Revolution was a remarkably unusual demonstration of a largely peaceful transition of power the protest didn't result in the overthrow. the actual military coup had already begun and the incumbent government already relented by the time the civilian protests began. also it was not the first or only coup by the MFA, it took multiple attempts (not just from the MFA) and years of build up frustration with the powers that be to accomplish that ultimate goal. even then there was still blood spilled, astonishingly LESS blood than your usual military overthrow (only 4 killed and 45 injured civilian casualties according to google) but regardless, violence alway tends to find revolution. the Carnation event was a celebration of the fall of fascism, it was not the action that removed if, that was the military coup. the Portuguese government didn't just up and stop being dictatorial because of peaceful protest, it was an overwhelmingly successful military coup that changed the government. point being, one day of peaceful protest didn't change Portugal, that's just the mythology like the American dream.

so my question is, are you advocating for a militant mutant coup of human society to make changes from the top down? because if that's what you are proposing they do then I guess I'm fine with the X-Men moving out of Krakoa back to their usual humanitarian efforts back at the Xavier Institute. although, I don't see them reaching their goal without humans killed some more of their brethren and children. oh well, you know what they say about eggs and omelettes.

I don't say using the force isn't necessary sometimes.
It's just the idea that using violence would be the only way to be effective to change things that bothers me.
I agree with the one who said that real changes are slow and progressive. People must change their minds, new generations must be born with blank minds and free of old prejudices, eager to live and believe (it's the reason why this nation of immortal people can only be a fossilised society to me).
Revolutions, coups are only flicks that close the remained distance to the goal if the situation is ready to change.

Eggs and omelettes… isn't that a CIA saying?

[Veitha]

Stop conflating the cartels as if they're Robin Hood and that Krakoa's doing good things relies on their partnership. Krakoa is filled with very smart people if they bothered they'd come up with alternatives that don't compromise themselves further. The fact Krakoa does ally themselves with the cartels isn't a good reason to think that they're right. Did you see how Shaw got the contract for the cartels? He made sure the rivals killed each other off because one cartel killed mutants. That's what cartels do, they murder people. They're not heroes.




Kraka is a nation full of Omegas and numerous veteran soldiers with super powers. The cartels are simply distributors for the drugs in the underworld, they don't need them to do that.

If morals aren't a priority how does Krakoa have any moral high ground on any other nation?



It's not the drugs which is why this is bad, the cartels don't stop being cartels because Krakoa is using them. If Krakoa allies themselves with HYDRA will you defend that, too?

You are conflating the cartels thing. Since we're supposedly discussing comics and not our headcanons, we can see on paper from Powers of X that Krakoa needs the black market for countries that have not signed the deal and to smugle mutants out. You're the one who preaches that Krakoa should take a pacifist stance and now you want them to invade other countries with super soldiers?

If kids are dying and people are being shot and killed my priority would be that above morals.

[Steel Inquisitor]

You are conflating the cartels thing.

Your argument is that Krakoa would be powerless doing those activities doing those activities without the cartels and that the cartels are somehow "good" organisations.

Since we're supposedly discussing comics and not our headcanons, we can see on paper from Powers of X that Krakoa needs the black market for countries that have not signed the deal and to smugle mutants out. You're the one who preaches that Krakoa should take a pacifist stance and now you want them to invade other countries with super soldiers?

if Hickman had Krakoa saying it was crucial for each mutant to make a deal with Mephisto to be a citizen would you agree with it? The fact Krakoa is doing something is not proof that was the right answer. The cartels don't stop being cartels because Krakoa finds them useful, it means they'll look the other way for allies who cause death and ruined lives if they think it will benefit them, the kicker is they could have other options if they tried but they didn't. If they'r doing this now who's to day they won't in bed with Dr. Doom, HYDRA, the Hand, Sinister Six, Norman Osborn, Maggia within a few years? It's like they can't wait to make alliances with the worst humanity has to offer and conspiring this is Marvel, they may as well just continue with Shuma Gorath, Dormammu and Cthon while they're at it. It's not like they're picky over allies, just as long as they aren't any nations from Earth. It's decisions like this Krkaoa makes that people question if they are even the real X-men.

I've never said Krakoa needs to pacifist, just not evil.

If kids are dying and people are being shot and killed my priority would be that above morals.

It's a false premise that the only barrier to achieving the goals is with making deals with groups like the cartels.

[ARkadelphia]

Did Xavier really have much of a dream in the first place? The day after his dream came to him, Moira was at his park bench telling him it doesn’t work. And since then, according to Moira at least, every time he tries to implement his dream, she has to stop him with the end result being that she has broken him.

[Veitha]

It's a false premise that the only barrier to achieving the goals is with making deals with groups like the cartels.

It is what's happening in the comics. It's been established that the black market is how the drugs and mutants can be taken out of nations, because they can't afford to publicly go to war with Russia or Brasil, which are doing great harm to both mutants and humans, by not taking the drugs. They're helping both through the cartels.

The rest is your ideas but not what's happening in the comics so no need of Pindaric flights of rethoric. You want them to have the moral high ground in spite of human and mutant lives, have at it.

Also, they have human allies. Countries that signed the treaty are allies and they even let human scientists experiment on their tech. The few humans nation they're not allied with are the ones who are killing mutants, and Wakanda.

[Glio]

Did Xavier really have much of a dream in the first place? The day after his dream came to him, Moira was at his park bench telling him it doesn’t work. And since then, according to Moira at least, every time he tries to implement his dream, she has to stop him with the end result being that she has broken him.

Moira comments in her diary that it took her a long time to convince Xavier. Furthermore, we know that Xavier without Moira's intervention will always follow his dream in all lives.

[Steel Inquisitor]

It is what's happening in the comics. It's been established that the black market is how the drugs and mutants can be taken out of nations, because they can't afford to publicly go to war with Russia or Brasil, which are doing great harm to both mutants and humans, by not taking the drugs. They're helping both through the cartels.

Anything can happen in comics, that's no reason not to question the choices characters make or to have opinions on what their choices are. Comics can also have plot twists and retcons. None of that disproves what I was saying about Krakoa having other options. Krakoa has many, many people who are capable of doing stealth work without being caught, they don't need to go to war to do things. The Marauders are doing this as we speak to Russia, and the cartels aren't involved. If Krakoa is truly that weak (it isn't) by relying on cartels why aren't they involved? The phrasing about the cartels make the cartels essential to Krakoa's security, which I find ridiculous. They're also helping the cartels murder people, and commit various crimes that ruin peoples lives, by giving them money and being partners. This isn't problematic?

The rest is your ideas but not what's happening in the comics so no need of Pindaric flights of rethoric. You want them to have the moral high ground in spite of human and mutant lives, have at it.

You can question what characters do in a comic book. Them doing something is not proof that that was the only plausible option for them to make, that stance hinges on whatever writers write being "right." Ergo, if Xavier made a deal with Mephisto for Krakoa's citizens it'd be right because that's how it was written. Morals are important to have, and Krakoa prides itself by being better than other nations. This is just a dodge about scrutinising Krakoa. Don't ask questions, believe anything the government says or does is for the good of the people, look the other way when the government is caught making deals with the worst criminals on Earth. The last part is concerning since that's the foundation Krakoa is built on, it's why the entire nation is a house of cards.

Also, they have human allies. Countries that signed the treaty are allies and they even let human scientists experiment on their tech. The few humans nation they're not allied with are the ones who are killing mutants, and Wakanda.

They have trade agreements with other nations for the drugs, they don't have any actual alliances with them. They're alone. Wakanda isn't their ally, and its a nation where they'd rely on cartels to move their drugs in their black market since they didn't sign on. The closest thing to an "ally" they have is Otherworld and they had to fight a war and install a puppet king to run it for them.

With how these conversations are headed I'll be expecting the welcome mat for HYDRA in the next few years.

Xavier's dream is dead.

[lowfyr]

No finally changed it After decades of Stories with humans killing mutants. His speeches revealing the NEW Status in HoX and x-men showed it quite well.

And again des it is not a clear Black and white Story. But that is one of the points why i like it.


They make mistakes and will make more, but the solution is better than the Alternative. Finally they do something to stop people killing children in playgrounds.

And yes the Trade agreements are not making countries allies but as xavier said he would habe given it for free of not for decades of killing of mutants.

[ARkadelphia]

Moira comments in her diary that it took her a long time to convince Xavier. Furthermore, we know that Xavier without Moira's intervention will always follow his dream in all lives.

Right! Thank you.

[Jack The Tripper]

I don't think it's that hard to understand that, from the point of view that has been written and shown to us, they no longer care about the human idea of good/evil/morality - the whole point is for a completely blank slate. No one mutant is better than the other, therefore no one view point is correct over another in this new society they are building for themselves. Yeah, they've made alliances with our concept of evil, but the mutant concept of evil is leaving mutants segregated in countries that abuse them. For Mutants, the ends justify the means. It's as simple as that. It's funny as well to insist that Xavier's dream is dead now, just because the mutants have done something that you may not consider heroic or justified. By using that logic, you could maintain that Xavier's Dream was dead following the Genoshan Genocide, or House of M, just because it was also something unjustified (except done by humans), that set progress back. Let me also just clarify that this kind of immoral activity is frequent in real life countries/governments. Not to mention, Krakoa's activities are just reactionary to what human countries have done. And yeah, throwing all their omega mutants at the problems won't solve anything because it would clearly ignite the brewing war. The idea is to have the fictional Mutant society operating realistically in the non fictional current society. I'd argue that Xavier's Dream is still alive because there hasn't been a war yet - these are the actions Xavier is taking to maintain the possibility of his dream, with the hope that, eventually, the rest of the populace accept Mutants as equals. In fact, removing mutants from the general public SHOULD make humans more at ease, seeing as they've just left the party they weren't welcome at.

Hickman is no doubt setting certain things up in order to bring them crashing down, so just be patient and see how things go before you write off Xavier's Dream as being dead.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I don't think it's that hard to understand that, from the point of view that has been written and shown to us, they no longer care about the human idea of good/evil/morality - the whole point is for a completely blank slate. No one mutant is better than the other, therefore no one view point is correct over another in this new society they are building for themselves. Yeah, they've made alliances with our concept of evil, but the mutant concept of evil is leaving mutants segregated in countries that abuse them. For Mutants, the ends justify the means. It's as simple as that. It's funny as well to insist that Xavier's dream is dead now, just because the mutants have done something that you may not consider heroic or justified. By using that logic, you could maintain that Xavier's Dream was dead following the Genoshan Genocide, or House of M, just because it was also something unjustified (except done by humans), that set progress back. Let me also just clarify that this kind of immoral activity is frequent in real life countries/governments. Not to mention, Krakoa's activities are just reactionary to what human countries have done. And yeah, throwing all their omega mutants at the problems won't solve anything because it would clearly ignite the brewing war. The idea is to have the fictional Mutant society operating realistically in the non fictional current society. I'd argue that Xavier's Dream is still alive because there hasn't been a war yet - these are the actions Xavier is taking to maintain the possibility of his dream, with the hope that, eventually, the rest of the populace accept Mutants as equals. In fact, removing mutants from the general public SHOULD make humans more at ease, seeing as they've just left the party they weren't welcome at.

That's the problem with entities who think they live outside morality, they always end up doing villainous things. Except on Krakoa some mutants are more equal than others. It's not juts :"our" concept of evil, before Krakoa many, many mutants thought they were evil, too, and for good reason. The evil mutants we're just as dangerous to mutants as the mutant bigots were. Xavier's dream is about mutants and humans living in harmony together and mutants being equals in human countries, this is there opposite of what Krakoa is about. That's why it's dead, the X-men gave up on it. The X-men have been divided over Xavier's dream for years but it wasn't until Krakoa that they all switched to that ideology. The fact other countries do this and it's understandable aren't the same as just accepting it the truth. Understanding something is not the same as agreeing with it. The war is coming anyway, and all they've done is make small allowances to humanity, which are hindered by bluntly telling humanity they're gods now and they're going to own humanity through economics rather than force. That's Magneto's dream of mutant domination, not Xavier's. There fact Krakoa isn't at war isn't why Xavier's dream's dead it's because they gave up on it, as long was that is the status quo the dream is replaced by another. Xavier's actions over Krakoa have subverted that dream at every turn and he's subtly been allowing mutants to have more conflicts with humanity - his priorities are on Krakoa First and Only. He undermines the dream, and only occasionally showing signs of the classic Xavier of "loving" humanity. Acceptance requires doing things which create step in that direction, Krakoa does not do this. Removing mutants from other countries makes humans less likely to be around them to form bonds to show that they're human like there rest of humanity, being distance is what bigots exploit to shape opinions of "the Other" since they'll fill in there gaps the mutants left. They ceded public opinion to the humans and not all humans are immune to smearing, and it's not helped by Krakoa becoming mutant bigot's propaganda made flesh. No democracy, kangaroo courts, working with organisations like cartels and numerous super-villains at the highest levels of society. This gives the impression mutants agree with all of this when they don't fight back against it. It's normalised, and once this is out in the public it's going to hurt mutants further than it already is.

Hickman is no doubt setting certain things up in order to bring them crashing down, so just be patient and see how things go before you write off Xavier's Dream as being dead.

I'm writing off Xavier's dream because the concept of Krakoa is its anthesis. It may be reborn in the future but as of now it's dead.

[Jack The Tripper]

What I'm saying is, in Krakoa, the main priority is the safety of mutants, so in the mind of Krakoans, the means of rescuing mutants is not immoral or evil, because the whole point is rescuing their own people who will certainly not be rescued by humans. Yeah, they're doing something that might be considered "classically" immoral but only because it suits their own agenda (an agenda which is moral), therefore it can't be considered as wholly evil - it isn't black and white. Gotta reiterate as well that, although a lot of mutants are known to have problems with particular "evil" mutants being on the island, Xavier and co have introduced it as a blank slate for ALL mutants - this is a society where they can start again, without the prejudices of humanity affecting them and their actions - the idea being that humanity led a lot of these mutants to commit atrocities. Let's be fair, it was Magneto saying their Gods now. Xavier was very clearly just forcing humanity to accept that mutants exist and they aren't going anywhere. It's not a death of his dream, it's just him being less passive in his tactics. I'd argue that Xavier removing many of the Villainous mutants from human society should really prove the dream isn't dead at all. Xavier's request was to have humanity accept mutants as equals and live in peace with them - he's made his move, now it's humanity's turn. Although his actions have changed, his dream hasn't, it's just a new method in which to get to it.

Krakoa isn't its antithesis at all, just a new version of it. Civilisations can exercise a peaceful co-existence without assimilating into each other - but that doesn't stop mixing happening in the future. Krakoa is just a safe place for mutants whilst humanity begins to accept. Krakoa is a stepping stone to the fruition of Xavier's Dream.

[BroHomo]

That's the problem with entities who think they live outside morality, they always end up doing villainous things. Except on Krakoa some mutants are more equal than others. It's not juts :"our" concept of evil, before Krakoa many, many mutants thought they were evil, too, and for good reason. The evil mutants we're just as dangerous to mutants as the mutant bigots were. Xavier's dream is about mutants and humans living in harmony together and mutants being equals in human countries, this is there opposite of what Krakoa is about. That's why it's dead, the X-men gave up on it. The X-men have been divided over Xavier's dream for years but it wasn't until Krakoa that they all switched to that ideology. The fact other countries do this and it's understandable aren't the same as just accepting it the truth. Understanding something is not the same as agreeing with it. The war is coming anyway, and all they've done is make small allowances to humanity, which are hindered by bluntly telling humanity they're gods now and they're going to own humanity through economics rather than force. That's Magneto's dream of mutant domination, not Xavier's. There fact Krakoa isn't at war isn't why Xavier's dream's dead it's because they gave up on it, as long was that is the status quo the dream is replaced by another. Xavier's actions over Krakoa have subverted that dream at every turn and he's subtly been allowing mutants to have more conflicts with humanity - his priorities are on Krakoa First and Only. He undermines the dream, and only occasionally showing signs of the classic Xavier of "loving" humanity. Acceptance requires doing things which create step in that direction, Krakoa does not do this. Removing mutants from other countries makes humans less likely to be around them to form bonds to show that they're human like there rest of humanity, being distance is what bigots exploit to shape opinions of "the Other" since they'll fill in there gaps the mutants left. They ceded public opinion to the humans and not all humans are immune to smearing, and it's not helped by Krakoa becoming mutant bigot's propaganda made flesh. No democracy, kangaroo courts, working with organisations like cartels and numerous super-villains at the highest levels of society. This gives the impression mutants agree with all of this when they don't fight back against it. It's normalised, and once this is out in the public it's going to hurt mutants further than it already is.



I'm writing off Xavier's dream because the concept of Krakoa is its anthesis. It may be reborn in the future but as of now it's dead.

Where do you see examples of mutants being more equal to others?
Most evil (humans or Mutants) don't consider themselves evil lol Unless they're some Satan aligned demon. The Brother hoodof evil Mutants was called that outta irony many mutants who joined groups like the BOEM or the MLF etc were victims of anti mutant bigotry. Their past experiences led them to believe humans would only listen to violent means of leaving mutants alone and since they were victims of unnecessary violence deemed humanity will never let their kind live in peace and thusly just be dominated. Bigots are around the people they hate a lot of the time... Being near Mutants would only allow access to that bigotry to expressed violently