What of Xavier's Dream?

[Snoop Dogg]

If mutants couldn't be in countries with leaders who are warmongering psychopaths, the X-Men would have had to leave the United States a long time ago.

[Steel Inquisitor]

First, ask yourself how many of the folks you are attempting to equate this with actually played a role(or on their own...) in keeping humanity from being wiped off of the face of the planet Earth.

Once you have that answer, ask yourself how many of the above group have actually done so on more than one occasion.

I could say the same every time the Avengers fight Ultron, the X-men don't even give them a phone call to ask if they're safe. Ultron destroyed an entire country, where were the X-men? This was national news in real time during "Ultron Unlimited." You're equating something the Avengers equivalent of that, that isn't proof that they don't care about mutant bigotry when everyone knows this is solely about editorial jurisdiction.

After you've done all of that, consider if the reality might be that an "Apple..."/"Orange..." comparison is being made in order to try to tie a fictional work to actual reality.

There's more going on than you're describing. The only thing mutants like Sebastian Shaw, Selene and Apocalypse have with mutants is the x-gene and are responsible for ruining mutant lives as the Purifiers. The Purifiers never took over several time lines and futures, Apocalypse has down the in several. Once of them adult! Cable lived in.

Edit: And no, nobody here thinks mutants shouldn't have a nation of their own. This is about how they govern, being a mutant nation they're not above scrutiny because they're mutants.

[numberthirty]

I could say the same every time the Avengers fight Ultron, the X-men don't even give them a phone call to ask if they're safe. Ultron destroyed an entire country, where were the X-men? This was national news in real time during "Ultron Unlimited." You're equating something the Avengers equivalent of that, that isn't proof that they don't care about mutant bigotry when everyone knows this is solely about editorial jurisdiction.



There's more going on than you're describing. The only thing mutants like Sebastian Shaw, Selene and Apocalypse have with mutants is the x-gene and are responsible for ruining mutant lives as the Purifiers. The Purifiers never took over several time lines and futures, Apocalypse has down the in several. Once of them adult! Cable lived in.

...

This has right around "Nothing..." to do with anything that is going on in the current "X" family of titles.

These sorts of "What Does This Even Have To Do With Anything?..." tangents is why no one really discusses much of the bit. Folks just are not interested in discussing nonsense that doesn't really have anything to do with the story actually being told in the "X" family of titles.

[Steel Inquisitor]

This has right around "Nothing..." to do with anything that is going on in the current "X" family of titles.

Incorrect. The X-line are in the Marvel universe, it would be nothing were this agreed upon due to what I described, and is correct about how Marvel works, the "nothing" which is being evaded around is used as proof that every non-mutant in the other titles are mutant bigots. We're discussing Marvel, not fanfic.

These sorts of "What Does This Even Have To Do With Anything?..." tangents is why no one really discusses much of the bit. Folks just are not interested in discussing nonsense that doesn't really have anything to do with the story actually being told in the "X" family of titles.

Moving the goal posts. All the mutants I listed are citizens of Krakoa, one of which is on the Quiet Council, I could have named more but you get the gist. It's important to acknowledge who these people are and what threat they pose to the mutants on Krakoa. They have everything to do with X-titles. The narrative of every mutant being a harmless innocent breaks down when these facts are bought to light, which is why they're discredited.

Shaw - prominent Hellfire Club member, crucial to getting the cartels on board. Selene - is there to monitor Krakoa's feeding process. Apocalypse - Quiet Council member, Excalibur leader, conquered Avalon and installed Jaime Braddock as his puppet king. Xavier has been ok with everything he'd done so far, including deliberately putting Rogue in a magic coffin.

[numberthirty]

Incorrect. The X-line are in the Marvel universe, it would be nothing were this agreed upon due to what I described, and is correct about how Marvel works, the "nothing" which is being evaded around is used as proof that every non-mutant in the other titles are mutant bigots. We're discussing Marvel, not fanfic.

...

Yes...

An overall Marvel line where the tangents that you are on about have right around "Nothing..." to do with.

Trying to toss out "Well, It Does Have 'Marvel...' on the front cover..." doesn't create a connection that does not actually exist.

[Icefanatic]

The Apocalypse who left his first four horsemen behind in an act that saves the entirety of the planet right along with mutants.

Is that the Apocalpse that we are talking about?

Or, is it the Apocalypse who hasn't really posed much of a threat to baseline humanity since coming to the mutant homeland?

Is that the Apocalypse we are talking about?

Apocalypse also saved the world from a Brood invasion, doubtless among many other things.

No one has forgotten who he is.

He is the guy who has saved the world on at least a few occasions that we know of.

If ever I could forget where I am, the sight of self-professed 'X-Men' fans exuberantly extolling the myriad virtues of Apocalypse does, with haste, remind me...

[Steel Inquisitor]

Yes...

An overall Marvel line where the tangents that you are on about have right around "Nothing..." to do with.

Acknowledging how Marvel as only being relevant by characterising every human in non-X-titles to bigots, and ignoring it entirely when people bring it up how they're not isn't compelling.

Trying to toss out "Well, It Does Have 'Marvel...' on the front cover..." doesn't create a connection that does not actually exist.

It's up to Marvel about what counts as canon, not the X-fandom, and according to Marvel every title in 616 is canon. We're not talking about What if? here.

No comments on this? It was an important part of my post.

Moving the goal posts. All the mutants I listed are citizens of Krakoa, one of which is on the Quiet Council, I could have named more but you get the gist. It's important to acknowledge who these people are and what threat they pose to the mutants on Krakoa. They have everything to do with X-titles. The narrative of every mutant being a harmless innocent breaks down when these facts are bought to light, which is why they're discredited.

Shaw - prominent Hellfire Club member, crucial to getting the cartels on board. Selene - is there to monitor Krakoa's feeding process. Apocalypse - Quiet Council member, Excalibur leader, conquered Avalon and installed Jaime Braddock as his puppet king. Xavier has been ok with everything he'd done so far, including deliberately putting Rogue in a magic coffin.

I'll take this as a sign there is no argument against what I said.

[numberthirty]

...

It's up to Marvel about what counts as canon, not the X-fandom, and according to Marvel every title in 616 is canon. We're not talking about What if? here.

No comments on this? It was an important part of my post.

...

No, it really was not.

The whole bit was just another attempt at discussing a completely unrelated tangent while folks reading the titles want to discuss the titles and not completely unrelated tangents.

Again, it's why the bulk of this bit doesn't really get taken seriously.

[Steel Inquisitor]

No, it really was not.

The whole bit was just another attempt at discussing a completely unrelated tangent while folks reading the titles want to discuss the titles and not completely unrelated tangents.

Again, it's why the bulk of this bit doesn't really get taken seriously.

Discussing super-villains who live and work on Krakoa is a tangent? No. That's not what tangent means, won't be too long until discussing Xavier's decisions are off-topic. And the topic is about Xavier's dream, its more than about Krakoa.

[numberthirty]

Discussing super-villains who live and work on Krakoa is a tangent? No. That's not what tangent means, won't be too long until discussing Xavier's decisions are off-topic. And the topic is about Xavier's dream, its more than about Krakoa.

If you want to discuss almost everything except what is actually happening in the titles?

Yes. That is a clearly unrelated tangent that has nothing to do with what is actually happening in the "X" titles.

[Zelena]

If you want to discuss almost everything except what is actually happening in the titles?

Yes. That is a clearly unrelated tangent that has nothing to do with what is actually happening in the "X" titles.

Until now, the “villains” that were included in the X-men team went through a phase of “redemption” like Rogue, Magneto… So there was no doubt that the fact these new additions didn't change anything to X-men ideals.
But there, it's completely different, there's no such thing. It's: « I'm a mutant, you're a mutant too, you did bad things, let's forget the past and we go together to the merry island. »

I don't know how X-men ideals cannot be called into question by the simple presence of the “villains” and at such places of power while the X-men don't seem very disturbed by their former ennemies. And I remember it didn't go smoothly with Rogue and Magneto… although these latters tried their best to fit in.

So yes it's… odd. And the fact that so many readers are not bewildered by that is a proof of the power of an author on his readership: if he says it's ok, well… it's ok.

[numberthirty]

Until now, the “villains” that were included in the X-men team went through a phase of “redemption” like Rogue, Magneto… So there was no doubt that the fact these new additions didn't change anything to X-men ideals.
But there, it's completely different, there's no such thing. It's: « I'm a mutant, you're a mutant too, you did bad things, let's forget the past and we go together to the merry island. »

I don't know how X-men ideals cannot be called into question by the simple presence of the “villains” and at such places of power while the X-men don't seem very disturbed by their former ennemies. And I remember it didn't go smoothly with Rogue and Magneto… although these latters tried their best to fit in.

So yes it's… odd. And the fact that so many readers are not bewildered by that is a proof of the power of an author on his readership: if he says it's ok, well… it's ok.

Because nothing has fundamentally changed.

It's not like Xavier gave each former enemy an "Oops!..." allowance along the lines of The Seven, and the "X" teams said "Welp, Nothing To See Here..."

[Lucyinthesky]

Until now, the “villains” that were included in the X-men team went through a phase of “redemption” like Rogue, Magneto… So there was no doubt that the fact these new additions didn't change anything to X-men ideals.
But there, it's completely different, there's no such thing. It's: « I'm a mutant, you're a mutant too, you did bad things, let's forget the past and we go together to the merry island. »

I don't know how X-men ideals cannot be called into question by the simple presence of the “villains” and at such places of power while the X-men don't seem very disturbed by their former ennemies. And I remember it didn't go smoothly with Rogue and Magneto… although these latters tried their best to fit in.

So yes it's… odd. And the fact that so many readers are not bewildered by that is a proof of the power of an author on his readership: if he says it's ok, well… it's ok.

I think this is a minsunderstanding since the beggining of Hickman´s run there had been theories about Moira´s influence on Xavier, during Age of X there were some thoughts about Xavier taking mind controling the X-men and then someone getting to the conclusion that it would be interesting if it wasn´t the case because mind controling stories are used a lot in most comics and maybe Hickman would do something different with the characters instead, because he often pushes the boundaries of the characters and takes them out of the status quo.

After HoX was done there were some thoughts and a lot of doubts about the villains presence on Krakoa from some posters while others thought it was an interesting new take on the franchise and the X-men as a whole.

Tbh I think it´s unfair to take this actitude you and some others posters have taken where if readers don´t completely agree with you or them they are somehow wrong in liking Hickman´s story or in thinking the villains part of the story "its problematic" about them as people instead of just seeing it like it´s, a story a writer made to try and bring something new to the X-men franchise and you can decide if you like it or not.

I agree, can deal and even find interest and fun on discussing the characters personal motives for their actual actions and beliefs, what I don´t quite agree with, is this possition you take where oh if you don´t agree with my criticisms you are being way too affected by the writer, I don´t think this type of discussion leads to anything productive.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I think this is a minsunderstanding since the beggining of Hickman´s run there had been theories about Moira´s influence on Xavier, during Age of X there were some thoughts about Xavier taking mind controling the X-men and then someone getting to the conclusion that it would be interesting if it wasn´t the case because mind controling stories are used a lot in most comics and maybe Hickman would do something different with the characters instead, because he often pushes the boundaries of the characters and takes them out of the status quo.

There are far more forces at work in Hickman's X-men than simple mind control. It's just the most obvious answer since this is Xavier and he's using it much more liberally and the implications with the resurrections process, like with Domino.

After HoX was done there were some thoughts and a lot of doubts about the villains presence on Krakoa from some posters while others thought it was an interesting new take on the franchise and the X-men as a whole.

This was not in conflict, it was how many readers agreed with this unquestionably not that it was simply "interesting," as well as whitewashing the past to make various characters look like heroes.

Tbh I think it´s unfair to take this actitude you and some others posters have taken where if readers don´t completely agree with you or them they are somehow wrong in liking Hickman´s story or in thinking the villains part of the story "its problematic" about them as people instead of just seeing it like it´s, a story a writer made to try and bring something new to the X-men franchise and you can decide if you like it or not.

Except this is not about characters being viewed as people, it's about the being seen as ideals. Ignoring canon to suit their own narrative, so the problematic aspects are dismissed from the discussion. People are messed up, they do horrible things to each other, they are murderers and terrorists except these traits are castoff as fanon. Another troubling aspect is how humanity is viewed, exemplified by the Purifiers as the physical manifestation whose crimes make all humanity guilty by association since they're the same species while pretending humanity has only been who the X-men fought against in their long history in print.

I agree, can deal and even find interest and fun on discussing the characters personal motives for their actual actions and beliefs, what I don´t quite agree with, is this possition you take where oh if you don´t agree with my criticisms you are being way too affected by the writer, I don´t think this type of discussion leads to anything productive.

It's not about Hickman, it's how his writing is perceived. If Hickman's word were that unquestionable what he did in other titles with similar themes, like the Avengers, would be respected as gospel but they're not. Hicman's X-men must be closed off not only from other X-men runs, as shown with discussions about characters in his books, but Marvel itself to have their views unquestioned by canon or Marvel itself. How people react to media tells us more about them than the media itself, they are participating in the media not simply passively observing it. This is what discussions are great for, exploring all the parts related to media.

[Lucyinthesky]

There are far more forces at work in Hickman's X-men than simple mind control. It's just the most obvious answer since this is Xavier and he's using it much more liberally and the implications with the resurrections process, like with Domino.

I agree there´s much more to the story than Xavier and yes Percy seems to be touching this on X-force with Domino and X-factor may reveal a lot other things. That´s why I like to wait to see what other developments are being added to the story, so we can see why the characters are making those decisions.

This was not in conflict, it was how many readers agreed with this unquestionably not that it was simply "interesting," as well as whitewashing the past to make various characters look like heroes.

What whitewashing? So they should be questioning the same way you are? they can´t just enjoy reading a story?

Except this is not about characters being viewed as people, it's about the being seen as ideals. Ignoring canon to suit their own narrative, so the problematic aspects are dismissed from the discussion. People are messed up, they do horrible things to each other, they are murderers and terrorists except these traits are castoff as fanon. Another troubling aspect is how humanity is viewed, exemplified by the Purifiers as the physical manifestation whose crimes make all humanity guilty by association since they're the same species while pretending humanity has only been who the X-men fought against in their long history in print.

I agree the purifiers can be more nuanced as well as all those angry humans who always want to get the mutants for some thing or another but in the same sense we have gotten to see some other humans who want to defend the mutants, they may not be as close to the X-men as Valerie Cooper used to be but they are still there, but that´s a choice of the writer and it´s not even a big part of the story Hickman is telling, his premise is "How can the X-men avoid a war with humanity? Krakoa seems to be one of the solutions they have, we may see more in the near future. I don´t find this problematic at all, all stories have a premise and a problem to deal with and the story is supposed to deal with the problem and development of the characters once the story is told.

It's not about Hickman, it's how his writing is perceived. If Hickman's word were that unquestionable what he did in other titles with similar themes, like the Avengers, would be respected as gospel but they're not. Hicman's X-men must be closed off not only from other X-men runs, as shown with discussions about characters in his books, but Marvel itself to have their views unquestioned by canon or Marvel itself. How people react to media tells us more about them than the media itself, they are participating in the media not simply passively observing it. This is what discussions are great for, exploring all the parts related to media.

Hickman is telling a story, you can agree or disagree with that story any way you like and yes discussion is great but going around judging people for the media or the story they like is what I have an issue with, because the discussion is supposed to be about the story, not about the people reading it.