What of Xavier's Dream?

[Veitha]

But Hellions are extreme cases, they will have methods to deal with mutants with milder pathologies such as anxiety.

Yeah yeah, I thought we were talking about Sabretooth like people.

I think that it was mentioned that empaths were helping kids with PSTD that were saved from ORCHIS.

[People Of The Earth]

Thats not true. Captain America appeared in Uncanny X-men right after the X-men disappeared. He talks to Scott and all he says is he wishes he had done more and then proceeds to do nothing.

Oh, pardon me, they included the Avengers only to throw them under the bus, as usual with most X-writers...
That's why I actually appreciated X-Men Red, the one time an X-writer actually tried to show them helping instead of scapegoating them.

I'm going by what was written by the X-writers. They showed them helping in Disassembled to deal with the fires that Nate had started but once the X-men seemingly sacrified their lives to defeat him, Cap wiped his hands of the fallout

Pretty sure the aftermath of Disassembled was glossed over with a timeskip: between the X-Men disappearing and Cyclops returning to start a new group, months had passed in-universe.
So that falls definitely on the writers, they decided not to show the superhero community react and do anything afterward, that's on them.
But even then, it's obvious allies of the X-Men looked around for them, it's nonsensical to assume they didn't look because the writers decided to timeskip. That would be next level OOCness.

Bucky, Steve and Natasha appeared in Rosencanny and reacted protecting the racist meetings.

Please, stop being so disingenuous.
They made it clear they wanted to be anywhere but at this meeting, they specifically went there because they were expecting major incidents and wanted to prevent their occurence.

The Champions believed that when they were vandalizing the O5 statue at Worthington Industries it was Dust's fault (although they later realized it wasn't her fault).

...

So, what is the point of you citing that example then? If it was all a misunderstanding on their part that they realized and course-corrected afterward? Did they harm Dust before realizing their mistake?
Pretty sure this is you grasping at straws with this one, but I don't read Champions so I can't be sure what you just said is a stretch.

[Havok83]

Oh, pardon me, they included the Avengers only to throw them under the bus, as usual with most X-writers...
That's why I actually appreciated X-Men Red, the one time an X-writer actually tried to show them helping instead of scapegoating them.

You want to discredit it but it happened. You cant say Im being biased and acting like they werent addressed, when the books show otherwise and that is what I went by when I made my original comment

The only reason the Avengers showed up in Red was bc Jean asked. The X-men were missing following Dissassembled. They werent in a position to ask for the Avengers to investigate what happened and find them. The onus should not have been on the victims that were gone

Pretty sure the aftermath of Disassembled was glossed over with a timeskip: between the X-Men disappearing and Cyclops returning to start a new group, months had passed in-universe.
So that falls definitely on the writers, they decided not to show the superhero community react and do anything afterward, that's on them.
But even then, it's obvious allies of the X-Men looked around for them, it's nonsensical to assume they didn't look because the writers decided to timeskip. That would be next level OOCness.

Not really when its par for the course. The Avengers help sometimes but there are also plenty of examples where they dont and its been acknowledged in story. We saw Cap acknowledge that he didnt do enough and over the course of that run, he fails to do anything to help the situation after his initial meeting with Scott. Its not like when he pops up at the end he gives an update to the investigation about the missing X-men. That wasnt his concern. Im not making any of this up

[Glio]

"I hate to implicitly legitimize the ideas of people who call for genocide by protecting them from all harm." Oh, how noble of Black Widow, Cap and Bucky. They hate being there!


And the example of the Champions reflects that their first reaction were to think that the mutant was the villain and the human protesters who wanted to vandalize the legacy of the X-Men were innocent civilians.

[Lucyinthesky]

It's two angles on the same subject, the audience is not above scrutiny. For example, thinking the message of Scarface was that being a gangster is good despite the fact his story is a tragedy which ended with him getting murdered by his enemies.

I seriously doubt someone can come to the conclusion that being a gangster is good just by looking at a movie, but following your perspective, are you suggesting to police the audience reactions to the story as a way of making sure they got the message you wanted them to get? Death of the author is a thing, once the story is out it can get millions of interpretations even if it`s not something the author personally thought about when he/she were making the story.

Nope, that in itself would be acceptable but that's not the whole story with Apocalypse and other villains popularity. It's not about readers being fans of characters its about them being fans of his ideals and sugarcoating who he is to hide his villainy. What's surprising is that this affect has enveloped the entire villain wing of Krakoa since they being to the same "club." This includes ignoring and dismissing the characters histories which everyone knows but tries to bury whenever it's bought up. As my arguments with numerous posters attest. Its like being a fan of Darth Vader and trying to ignore the fact he was involved in Alderaan's destruction, despite thinking the Empire was right.

I am going by the reactions on this forum, they have not been different to other fans enjoying reading about Dr Doom, Lex Luthor or Doc Ock or Darth Vader this fact doesn`t mean they agree with them, just that they enjoy reading about them. I am a fan of Anakin Spywalker/Darth Vader yet at no point did I thought the empire was right, just that he was a well made character who had an interesting evolution during the trilogy, I am a fan of Greek tragedies and his life was very tragic, you can like fictional characters without thinking all their actions are right. There has always been fans of antagonists I think it`s way too intrusive and too reductive of other peoples povs to pretend to know what all of them feel or like about villains or fictional characters in general, this sense of entitlement I don`t agree at all.

The logical position to make would be make their own country with proper security, not isolate themselves entirely from humanity except criminals like cartels. There are vastly more options with Krakoa than whatÂ’s in the books, itÂ’s not simply the right option because Hickman wrote it and HickmanÂ’s not made a secret that this is is gong to crash sooner rather than later. Except they’ve gone too extreme even at this stage, theyÂ’ve sold their principles to the highest bidder as fast as they could, thatÂ’s why its unsettling.

They are part of the UN with all that involves, that hardly sounds like they isolated themselves from humanity, they just are making their own rules for their country, something they as a sovereing nation have a right to have just like Wakanda or Atlantis or Latveria or Attilan does on the MU.

Oh, you know Hickman`s plans now? XD I think that yes, he`s purposely making some things unsettling or letting some mystaries to develop but I also thought it was unsettling when I saw Reed Richards,Black Panther, Doc Strange, etc build planet destroying armament or conjure mosnters to do the job yet I didn`t see other fans reacting as strongly with them the way you are with the X-men. I guess I don`t get this double standard when the X-men hardly have done something remotely similar to that.

Or when this happened from Hickman`s work on the FF, I guess I just don`t see much difference between this and the X-men alliance with their villains and in their case they are making them agree to follow their rules and the X-men are actual adults with a country behind them to help them in case some of their villains want to get into their schemes, some of them even are aware they are being closely watched.

But it is to others, since when have the X-men been ok with Apocalypse throwing their own into magic coffins for his schemes?

Well Rogue killed him over that and the rest of the team called him on it, that`s something. Still I think we will get to see where is marvel going with apocalypse on the X of Spades story. But I agree with you he should have gotten more reactions from the X-men, Xavier specifically.

Why wouldn't you want to analyse how readers react to stories? I've been doing that, others didn't like what I (and others) were thinking about it. Hickman's doing many things but ambiguity about morality isn't one of them. It didn't take very long for Krakoa to get into bed with cartels and that's as black and white as you can get in media. X-men: The Gift had a storyline about why that was a bad idea. Don't conflate what readers do with Hickman, they're two separate entities, readers go in their own directions with media. Except many of those people don't see what myself and others view as valid, they view it as an attack. I've never questioned Hickman himself, I trust he knows what he's doing. Another part of this is that it becomes difficult not to notice this resistance to any “popular’ sentiment which forces posters to submit or leave via peer pressure.

What I am questioning is your sense of entitlement and your presumption that you know the way other readers are reacting. Discussing different pov`s is one thing, getting upset that other readers don`t see the story the same way you are is another. Also if you are really into analysing other readers why you would not analyse Hickman`s work? to me it makes more sense given he`s very much running the main story and is the one introducing those concepts that make you so uneasy, the fans are just enojoying or questioning the story as they see it develop.

This erases how badly Wanda was treated by the X-men, as if everything they was right. They continue to put it all on Wanda, instead of people like Doom. Excedropt there wre mutants who did stand up for her, and they were ignored. There was an actual battle between the X-men and the Avengers over Wanda surrendering herself to the X-men, it wasn’t an exchange of harsh words. What characters, and readers, feel don’t make it right – it’s feelings. That’s what a trial would be good for, if Krkao believed in having a court system rather than a joke. This paragraph is very ambiguous, are you talking about the characters, readers or both?

I disagree, at the end of Children`s Crusade the X-men let Wanda walk off free, considering what she did that was like a slap on the wrist. I think marvel should let the matter drop and let each character on their corner of the marvel universe for the moment, if you as a Wanda fan don`t see much point in her getting a trial on Krakoa that means that story would not help to get closure for HoM and decimation.

[marhawkman]

And they'd be wrong. As shown at the bottom of this post.



Stop erasing when Apocalypse does a bad thing with gaslighting. First it was cherrypicking the instances he did something good to erase all the bad things he did in the past and ignore whenever those examples are bought up as though it's cheating to win an argument about the character now it's extended to titles he's appearing in currently, Excalibur.



Don't act like these people have no connection to who they were in the recent past or the fact this is blown up in the X-men's face more than once before.

Uncanny X-men Vol.1 #328. Xavier failed using therapy to rehabilitate Sabretooth, he escaped by tricking Tabitha to throw her projectiles at him and she barely survived until Psylocke showed up and he did this to her.



House of X#1



Krkaoa is supposed to have drugs to cure this sort of thing so why didn't why try them on Sabretooth?

Analysing comics requires actually acknowledging what's going on in the books, not fanon.



You've completely ignored what I was saying to ironically go on a tangent. Now I'm curious, since the post you're responding to was about Selene. What do you think of herm before she was on Krakoa?

Creating a mutant homeland won't come to much with characters like that trying to sabotage the project for their won agendas, they're ticking time bombs waiting to go off. We've had two go off by now, Sabretooth, Mystique is plotting revenge for them not bringing back Destiny, Shaw's secretly murdered Kitty (who saw that coming? Everyone!) and Apocalypse did, as well, except Xavier gave him a pass over putting Rogue into a magic coffin for his mad science project. She killed him in revenge and he woke up here:



"I'm just so disappointed in you, Apocalypse. Say you're sorry then off you go, it's not like Rogue meant anything to me to punish you for harming her."

And I'm supposed to believe Xavier hasn't been acting squirrelly?

Argue what I post in its entirety, don't cherrypick one or two sentences otherwise I'm not going to respond to these outlandish denials and mutant super-villain apologia.

Enh, how much harm did it actually cause to Rogue? I'd argue that Apocalypse came out on the losing end of that deal.

[Glio]

Apocalypse was a dick for what he did to Rogue but it wouldn't categorize it as "extremely serious" either. It is not something an antihero would not have done.

[Kingdom X]

Enh, how much harm did it actually cause to Rogue? I'd argue that Apocalypse came out on the losing end of that deal.

I feel like it hasn’t been talked about as a big deal because Tini isn’t a great writer. He not only put Rogue into a coma, but put her in the position where she had to kill him with her powers. I feel Rogue would be at least a lil scarred by that.

[BroHomo]

Nope, that in itself would be acceptable but that's not the whole story with Apocalypse and other villains popularity. It's not about readers being fans of characters its about them being fans of his ideals and sugarcoating who he is to hide his villainy. What's surprising is that this affect has enveloped the entire villain wing of Krakoa since they being to the same "club." This includes ignoring and dismissing the characters histories which everyone knows but tries to bury whenever it's bought up. As my arguments with numerous posters attest.

You almost sound like the Thinkpol and this its 1984 *cringe* Theres antiheroes all over pop culture its obvious some fans love them, but what makes you sooo sure that Apoc's fans are suuuuper into his ideology of a fictional group of people having dominion over the other? And even if they are who cares? Most fans of the X-Men are in some capacity members of disenfranchised/marginalized group. Why are you trying to their power fantasy into something wrong? t
Trying to police the feelings of others? that's the real power trip

It's like being a fan of Darth Vader and trying to ignore the fact he was involved in Alderaan's destruction, despite thinking the Empire was right.

tbh I know next to sh!t about Star Wars but I'm preeeetty certain Vader has a lotta fans, a lot of them were/are kids. Go out on Halloween and you'll see them dressed as Vader, Thanos, Trump....There would be no need to confront said kids about the deaths on Alderaan, or call said kid disgusting for killing half the universe. There's a book series, a whole play about the Witch of the West, theres 2 Movies on Maleficent you trying say fans of theirs condone murder? treason? poisoning? It's fun to root for the Bad Guy multiple franchises are based on that. (Fast4Furious5, Avengers?)

The logical position to make would be make their own country with proper security, not isolate themselves entirely from humanity except criminals like cartels.

Yes because that is the logical thing to do. Why didn't other persecuted people think about that? If they wanna stop being killed and stomped to death....just make your country safer. My bad that was sarcasm. But seriously how would you propose making the united states safer for mutants? They aren't trying to fight a giant snake with wings, The X-Books are about people fighting against their own prejudices and bigotry. There's no gun big enough to kill those, the easiest thing would be just changing everyone's minds. But Prof X won't dont that....cause he is a man of class and good breeding.

, it’s not simply the right option because Hickman wrote it and Hickman’s not made a secret that this is is gong to crash sooner rather than later.

The way some posters are chomping at the bit to see a nation of persecuted people get their 'comeuppance' is unsettling.

Except they’ve gone too extreme even at this stage, they’ve sold their principles to the highest bidder as fast as they could, that’s why its unsettling.

And the highest bidder turned out to be..... Themselves!!! Their Safety!! What a twist!! How Evvvvil Buut seriously who have they sold it to? Selene? Yeah she's really cackling now all those mutant kids not being eaten. APoc Yeah a nation stronghold of the most powerful mutants living...loving next to some the weakest? totally his M.O. Sabretooth? Yeah hes got them right where he wants them....I mean Wolverine

Magneto's a monster who thinks mutants are gods and we're all ants to be stepped on.

I mean and? He doesn't sound any worse than some of the people elected to run some countries. Alabama almost elected a pedophile

But it is to others, since when have the X-men been ok with Apocalypse throwing their own into magic coffins for his schemes?

Siiiince X-Cutioners Song?

Don't conflate what readers do with Hickman, they're two separate entities, readers go in their own directions with media. Except many of those people don't see what myself and others view as valid, they view it as an attack. I've never questioned Hickman himself, I trust he knows what he's doing. Another part of this is that it becomes difficult not to notice this resistance to any “popular’ sentiment which forces posters to submit or leave via peer pressure.

It's not Peer Pressure...No one is forcing anyone to submit dude, Theres room for #RachelisWolverinesKid Folks, #RachelisCyclopsKid and #RachelisPhoenixForceKid XFans are intense when you step up with an argument it's gotta make sense, you gotta be able to back that sh!t up with some hard canon... I don't think anyone feels that posts are attacking them....at worst I think its an obviously incorrect, but still irresponsible narrative that might give a kid a sour impression of the brand. But Dude read what you posted.

readers go in their own directions with media

Trying to define and lump everyone who isnt so quick to pick up on the dastardly plan as you is an exercise in futility.

Except many of those mutants act evil because its their nature or personality and are physically dangerous. They've tried therapy on some of them like Sabretooth, he ended up nearly killing Psylocke and Tabitha.

Well I mean most of them were tortured by humans, and being a physical threat is a unlikely cause of their "evilness" Human's aren't born bad. Probably can't say the same about folks like Ares the God of War, and Loki, the Prankster God. I mean that is their nature. and they've been fvcking stuff up for human beings since...ever

Moira herself has spent her life trying to do this and failed horribly. Krkao, and how its supportsers in the readership, react to these dangerous mutants is that once they become citizens they start of from scratch, despite the fact it’s not like Krkoa is putting in effort to make them safe members of society. They know how dangerous these mutants are and are ok putting other people at risk without any precautions. The X-men were never this slack with security as super-heroes.

If having Sabretooth on your squad makes them somehow evil then so be it. It's a special kinda Denial to use Creed of the X-men carelessness While being cool with the likes of Loki, Ares, The Sentry, and The Pretender. Whoosh! And How has Moira failed miserably? None of the reality warpers she raised has had a more negative impact of mutants than...

Governments have been doing that most of their lives, but they never lost hope in Xavier’s dream, Krakoa has them doing that. Not every decision is right simply because some humans are bad, and this ignores how other mutants have helped those groups by creating fear with murder and mass destruction. They want a race war, not peace. Or, with mutants like Selene, Sabretooth and Apocalypse, they simply crave violence and oppress any mutant they stumble across.

WHo? Who? wants a race war? what m mutant villians group is seeking that end goal? If you're lumping Selene and Apoc with crass criminal Sabretooth...smh

This erases how badly Wanda was treated by the X-men, as if everything they was right. They continue to put it all on Wanda, instead of people like Doom. Excedropt there wre mutants who did stand up for her, and they were ignored. There was an actual battle between the X-men and the Avengers over Wanda surrendering herself to the X-men, it wasn’t an exchange of harsh words. What characters, and readers, feel don’t make it right – it’s feelings. That’s what a trial would be good for, if Krkao believed in having a court system rather than a joke.

Funny your point is how hateful and unfair the mutants are being to humanity. The Xmen are the next Brotherhood of Suicide Bombing mutants, Yet this paragraph and is all about how a person who just cause the death of countless marginalised people is being mistreated by said People. Magneto, Apoc, Selene, etc....irredeemable monsters The Pretender? misunderstood...the real victim.
It's hard to take it seriously.

If it's too sarcastic my bad...remnant of 4th of July celebrations

[Havok83]

How did the X-men treat Wanda badly when they've largely left her alone? Did I miss her getting bulllied anywhere?

[Veitha]

How did the X-men treat Wanda badly when they've largely left her alone? Did I miss her getting bulllied anywhere?

Rogue argued with her and Scott was mean during Children's Crusade. Poor thing.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Rogue argued with her and Scott was mean during Children's Crusade. Poor thing.

Rogue tried to isolate her from her friends in the Avengers, and she wasn't subtle about it. It failed badly because the Avengers saw right through Rogue and told her off. Don't reduce every bad thing Scott did to being "mean." The X-men went straight to the violence when it came to Wanda, they acted more like the Imperial Guard over Jean then X-men.

Edit: And of course we can't forget the time Rogue murdered Wanda against Wolverine's orders.

[Sutekh]

I think that it was mentioned that empaths were helping kids with PSTD that were saved from ORCHIS.

A fun job for the one empath we know of for certain, Empath, who has been retconned into a sociopath (as opposed to just a bad, bad person)...

And yet that could be interesting. He can sense emotion, and manipulate it. He *knows* what healthy non-traumatized people 'feel' like, thanks to his powers, and it probably 'sounds more harmonious' to be surrounded by healthy psyches and not people in the grip of PTSD flashbacks or anxieties or whatever (which must 'sound' more discordant to an empath, and be, if nothing else, annoying, even to
a sociopath, like a bunch of tuneless people singing karoake badly, or someone spray painted clashing colored graffiti over everything in sight).

And so, it would make some sort of sense that even an antisocial empath could be motivated to help people experiencing trauma if only to shut out the noise. (And, conversely, when things get too peaceful and stable, to stir some **** up, which could explain the need to get him on a team, since he's a disruptive agent, left to his own devices...)

[Glio]

Krakoa is big, they obviously have more empaths than we know about. All those weirdly colored mutants in the background at parties also have powers.

[Havok83]

Rogue tried to isolate her from her friends in the Avengers, and she wasn't subtle about it. It failed badly because the Avengers saw right through Rogue and told her off. Don't reduce every bad thing Scott did to being "mean." The X-men went straight to the violence when it came to Wanda, they acted more like the Imperial Guard over Jean then X-men.

Edit: And of course we can't forget the time Rogue murdered Wanda against Wolverine's orders.

The X-men went after Wanda in 2 issues in one story 8 years ago and once they found out what was up with her, they agreed to leave her alone. Never mind that they've stuck to that and have not done anything to her since. This narrative that they've been mistreating is largely overblown and quite false. The X-men have had their own issues to deal with and Wanda hasnt been on anyone's radar